20-Why Fitting In Is Not Always a Good Thing

Season #3 May 20, 2026

Why Fitting In Is Not Always a Good Thing

Podcast Show Notes

In this episode of the Become The Leader You Would Follow podcast, Jody Holland is joined by Meghan Slaughter, Mike Grigsby, and Maleah Grigsby for a powerful discussion about why standing out matters more than fitting in.

The conversation explores the tension between the human need for belonging and the leadership necessity of thinking differently. From unconventional education paths and entrepreneurial risk-taking to innovation, leadership culture, and personal identity, this episode challenges listeners to stop chasing approval and start creating value.

The group discusses how fear of rejection often keeps people trapped in mediocrity, while the people who make the greatest impact are usually the ones willing to be misunderstood first.

Key Topics Covered

Why humans are naturally wired to seek acceptance and avoid rejection
The danger of “commoditized mediocrity” in leadership and business
How innovation often begins with discomfort and misunderstanding
The role of unconventional thinking in creating breakthrough success
Why leaders who try too hard to fit in often lose credibility
The importance of developing your own “Blue Ocean Strategy”
How “exploiting the voids” creates opportunity where others see nothing
The relationship between creativity, courage, and leadership influence
Why authentic leadership requires self-awareness and conviction
How organizational culture suffers when leaders avoid difficult conversations

Memorable Stories & Examples

The 1984 Macintosh Commercial

The group discusses the iconic Apple commercial that symbolized breaking free from conformity and challenging the status quo.

Southwest Airlines & Jack Daniel’s

A humorous but insightful example of how Southwest Airlines differentiated itself early on by creating a unique customer experience instead of following industry norms.

Blue Ocean Strategy

The conversation references Blue Ocean Strategy and the concept of building a micro-niche instead of competing in overcrowded markets.

The Origami Surgeon Story

An incredible story about surgeon Yoichi Hashimoto using origami techniques to improve surgical precision, ultimately influencing advancements in robotic surgery and medical instrument design.

“Exploiting the Voids”

Mike Grigsby introduces the concept of identifying gaps others overlook — comparing innovation opportunities to the spaces between rocks, pebbles, sand, and water in the classic time-management analogy.

Powerful Quotes from the Episode

“Every major breakthrough starts with somebody being misunderstood.”

“We don’t really fear failure. We fear rejection.”

“The crowd is reactive. A true leader is proactive.”

“Innovation is messy. Fitting in is easy. Not fitting in is scary.”

“History pretty much never remembers the people who blended in nicely.”

“You are the deliverable.”

“If you keep doing the same thing over and over, you’re going to keep getting the same thing over and over.”

Lightning Round Leadership Advice

Mike Grigsby

“Be comfortable with discomfort. You have to do something different to get something different.”

Maleah Grigsby

“Look at the qualities that made successful people who they are — don’t just replicate their path.”

Meghan Slaughter

“Think about what your five-year-old self would do and do it.”

Jody Holland

“You will develop what you tolerate.”

Main Takeaway

The leaders, innovators, and organizations that truly change the world are rarely the ones trying to blend in. They are the ones willing to challenge assumptions, embrace discomfort, think creatively, and stay authentic even when it is unpopular.

If you want extraordinary results, you cannot continuously pursue ordinary thinking.

Become The Leader You Would Follow.

Episode Transcript

Jody Holland (00:08.886)
Hey guys, I'm Jody Holland here with Megan Slaughter, Mike Grigsby and Malia Grigsby, soon to be Malia Bairns, right? Bairns, Bairns, I'm going to say it right at some point. We're going to really good show for you today. we kind of had some fun on the last show talking about trying to be each other and what that was like. So we thought it was only fitting to follow up with why it makes sense to not fit in. And so I'll kind of kick it off.

think there's a human need to fit in. I joke around in companies a lot about not getting voted off the island, but I do think that that's one of the things that we're afraid of. And so I want to open it up. Let's start with Malia. Like talk about what life has been like for you because you're unique. Like you have always stood out from the crowd. You're, you're very driven. And a lot of times that probably made you stand out. What was that like for you?

Maleah Grigsby (01:02.107)
A thousand percent. I, like you said, I'm very driven. I am very much an achiever. Like I like to whatever the next most adventurous craziest thing to do is, I'm going to try and go for that. I remember it was my senior year of high school and it was like maybe our last two or three weeks before we graduated. We're all getting sentimental and all the things. And there was a group of us girls that were all just talking.

And like, one of us, or none of us felt like really good about what our plans were for right after we graduated. And I was taking a more unconventional path. And I remember one of the girls just looks at me and she's like, why are you in such a hurry to grow up? It's like, well, it's not really that I'm in a hurry to grow up. I just know how many things that I've done in my past, all of these different experiences that I've had that I get to build upon. And that means that I'm not gonna take a traditional path.

And it was this like, went on a whole spiral because of it. was like, am I like trying to grow up too fast? Am I doing the wrong thing just because it's not the right path or it's not what everyone else is doing? And it was just this automatic assurance that I had of like, the people that get to go the furthest, the people that have the once in a lifetime experiences are the ones that aren't afraid to step off of the conventional path.

Jody Holland (02:23.576)
I would agree with that. Megan, you like to stand out as well. Like you kind of did your high school differently and your college differently. Talk a little bit about that because the two of you are very similar in some of those, but also unique.

Meghan Slaughter (02:38.478)
Yeah, so in high school, I definitely did not take the traditional path for my education because I really wanted to get ahead and take some college classes, but the school that I was going to at the time did not offer that. So I ended up switching schools so that I could be concurrently enrolled. So I was taking high school classes and college classes at the same time. So not just dual credit classes, but I kind of set a precedent at the school that I was at in high school. And I think that

they now love talking about my success story from that. But at the time it wasn't something that they were necessarily allowing students to do. But I really pushed for it because it's something that I really cared about and wanted to be a part of. And I ended up becoming a part of the group called the Presidential Scholars. And so I was able to go off of campus from my high school to go onto Amarillo College's campus and really interact with people there. And so

That was such a unique thing for me and I feel like I learned so much from that interaction and all of the things that I was able to do through that, that I'm so much better off now because of it. And so I think there's so many different paths that people can take and I think people assume you have to just do something one way, whether you go to school or don't go to school or you pursue this career or something entirely different.

It doesn't really matter. You have to do what works best for you. There's not a wrong way to do something in life because we're all just trying to figure it out as we go. And I think I've gone through phases where sometimes I'm a little bit more reserved and I want to fit in with the crowd. But then there will be other times where I'm like, you know what? I feel very passionate about this. This is what I want to do. And I'm going to find a way to make it work because where there's a will, there is a way.

Jody Holland (04:29.304)
I love that. All right, Mike, I'm going to be funny here. You're weird. Tell me how that works for you.

Mike Grigsby (04:34.402)
Thanks.

Meghan Slaughter (04:34.868)
you

Mike Grigsby (04:37.359)
I you were going call me unique again.

Jody Holland (04:39.478)
That's what I meant. I just mispronounced it. My bad.

Mike Grigsby (04:43.875)
When we decided this was going to be the topic, I think the thing that immediately popped into my mind was the iconic 1984 Macintosh commercial. So here you have just this gray doldrums backdrop of everybody doing everything the exact same way as they've always done it before. And here comes this lady running through, long story short, Apple's like,

be different, be unique, be something, what they call themselves, pirates or something like that. mean, it was the counterculture. That was the whole thing that was there. And I don't think people need to go to that extreme to do it, but the reality is, and I think Megan, you might've said this on a previous episode, maybe I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but we're all doing life for the first time. None of us has been through here before. This isn't a repeat option. So we're all trying to figure it out. And if this is all brand new,

Why try to be like everybody else? And I think it's interesting. I make this comment with my wife all the time. It's like, you hear all of the beauty in the cosmetic industry telling you to look this way or dress this way or whatever. When you go to the mall or when you go to just walk outside, everybody has a different look. Everybody has a different way about them. It's like, why exactly are we trying to make everybody be and look and behave the same?

I think it's more just convenience and I'm sure it'll come up at some point, right? We don't want to get excommunicated from the tribe. You talked about getting kicked off the island, but everybody is afraid. We're wired to be a part of the tribe, but we're not wired for to be exposed and to to kind of be those adventures. And anytime that we see a true maverick, you know, whether it's Elon Musk, whether it's Steve Jobs, whether it's fill in the blank, you know, whoever it is, whenever we see a true maverick, we were.

awed and appalled at the same time. You know, I think there's a great saying and it says, you know, the greatest heresy the crab can make is to make a leap for the rim of the bucket. And you know, the story is all the other crabs are starting to pull you back in and none of them can make it out. And I think we wrestle with that sometimes. We want to break free, we want to be that maverick, but we, man, we're so scared to not be correct. I mean, yeah.

Jody Holland (07:04.503)
We're wired to survive. We're wired not to quote unquote rock the boat or tip over the bucket or whatever you want to say. But I think every major breakthrough in any business, any industry, it's going to start with somebody being misunderstood. Yeah. They're going to look at them and go, what is wrong with that person? Like, can you imagine Herb Kelleher sitting in a board meeting is like, all right, we are not winning the regional

Mike Grigsby (07:11.075)
100%.

Jody Holland (07:33.45)
airline awards. How do we get more people to fly with us? And one of his guys who's probably got a cocktail in his hand goes, let's give everybody a fifth of Jack Daniels. And that's the idea they went with. Like in the beginning, they were the largest distributor of Jack Daniels in the United States. And they're like, thank you for flying with us. Here's some Jack. Thank you for flying with us. Here's some Jack. And they cost more. And they just built in the cost of the whiskey into it.

Mike Grigsby (07:46.871)
Yep.

Jody Holland (08:02.498)
But it was a weird idea. I think looking at things and going, let's be weird. And I do think the Steve Jobs saying, like you talked about that commercial in 1984, it was truly iconic. know, 1984 won't be 1984 anymore. And he was referencing George Orwell's 1984 of we are all controlled and the machine has us and, you know, submit to the man or whatever. But to break free when you, if you watch out that lady that throws the wedge hammer into it.

Mike Grigsby (08:29.161)
uh-huh the hammer

Jody Holland (08:32.63)
That is a willingness to suffer in order to stand apart. And I think that is hard. And to go back to what Malia and Megan were talking about, being willing to be a go-getter, like how many people in this world are like, I'm just not going to be in any hurry to grow up. You know, I just think I'll live with my parents until I'm 37. And I'm not really joking, unfortunately.

Meghan Slaughter (08:54.904)
Hehehe.

Mike Grigsby (08:58.903)
Right.

Jody Holland (09:00.16)
The average young person now, like if you look at Gen Z, it's estimated that they will rely on their parents for financial support until they're about 40 years old.

Mike Grigsby (09:11.959)
Really.

Jody Holland (09:12.566)
Right. Yeah. That's the right facial expression. Like really? missed out on that. Mom and dad didn't tell me I was an option. Megan's over there going, 40? Why the 18 thing then? Yeah. I do think that the generations have changed, but I also think that we go with our conditioning. So

Meghan Slaughter (09:20.856)
Yeah.

Meghan Slaughter (09:28.046)
What's up with that?

Jody Holland (09:37.858)
Humans want to fit in. So whatever they were conditioned to fit in with, they go, Hey, that's survival. That's why peer pressure is so incredibly powerful. And why, you know, we talked about group thinking another episode, the way we make decisions when we're in a crowd. All of that changes because I think we want to avoid conflict. You look at the executive though, that avoids dealing with the difficult conversations. If you have an executive avoiding that, I promise you have a culture that is suffering.

Because when we avoid dealing with the tough stuff so that we're liked or that we fit in, that's where bad decisions are made on a regular basis. I think we don't really fear failure. We fear rejection. My question is how many businesses do you think have failed because people were afraid to speak up because they were afraid of what the people around them might think? Like I don't know the answer to that.

Mike Grigsby (10:07.671)
Yeah, for sure.

Meghan Slaughter (10:32.599)
I think, no, but I think that's huge. And I think that a lot of businesses end up trying to pivot to fit in with the popular trends and what works for other people doesn't always work for you. so following the same social media trends is not always effective for every single business. If you are a very serious business and you're posting silly content, then those values might be conflicting just a little bit.

Now you can do silly things and tie them back into serious topics, but you have to be very intentional about that. So I think you just need to be aware of that. And you mentioned the conditioning. I think back to when I was a kid and how I wasn't afraid of anything and I didn't care what anybody thought, but I slowly learned to fear other people's opinions. You know, I think back to all of the talent shows that I put on for my parents with my best friends and

how we recreated music videos and I sang on stage at the talent show at school. None of that bothered me, but I would not be stepping on stage today to sing in front of a crowd of 100 plus people. That's just not going to happen. But as a seven year old, of course, you think that you're a fantastic singer and how could you not? exactly, but you learn to start fearing what other people think of you.

Jody Holland (11:56.216)
Who's your seven?

Meghan Slaughter (12:02.348)
and you start fitting yourself into this box so that you match up with other people. So I do think that sense of belonging is innate, but I think we're conditioned to go with the flow rather than stand as the rock or even forge a new path at times.

Jody Holland (12:20.312)
And don't you think like if we become indistinguishable from other businesses because we're doing what they're doing, you know, we built the culture they built, our marketing is the same as theirs. Eventually we have just commoditized mediocrity. You know, we're not standing out. There's nothing special about us. There was a book years ago called Blue Ocean Strategy. I want to say probably 12, 15 years ago. Do you remember that one, Mike? Yeah.

Mike Grigsby (12:44.279)
Good book. yeah, good book.

Jody Holland (12:48.504)
Thank you for reading the same books as me. helps out. Part of what they talked about in that book is most executives miss the idea that if you're just doing what everybody else is doing, you're swimming in a red ocean. If you're in an ocean full of red, full of blood, then the sharks are circling and your business is at risk. But if you create your own blue ocean strategy, you're away from everybody else and you don't do what everybody else is doing, you create your

own micro niche that nobody else is in, then people can't compete with you. And that was why in the beginning of my business, and I don't really do this anymore, but I thought I'm to give people a hundred percent money back guarantee that this will work. No other trainer was doing that. And I thought, why not? I mean, if it doesn't work, I'm going out of business anyway. the first, first bet I did was like 30.

Meghan Slaughter (13:41.358)
Might as well.

Mike Grigsby (13:42.605)
Seth, sound reasoning.

Jody Holland (13:44.665)
$34,000 contracts. 100%. I know this will work. You ever done it before? This plus one more will make two. So no, I've never done this before, but I'm pretty sure it'll work. Quite confident that it might. You know, if you think about like certain, certain day Soleil at the time when they were trying to make their rise, people were doing animal shows. And that was like the really popular thing, bringing the animals and you know, you have tigers and lions and bears. my.

Mike Grigsby (14:11.81)
Yeah.

Jody Holland (14:14.514)
And they go, we have people that are painted that we throw them off of tall objects. And like they made it acrobatic, they didn't use animals and it made them stand apart or blue man where I love the blue man. Where they, they're painted blue and they're drumming and they're throwing things back and forth. And like, it's just crazy cool. So all of the ones that created their own strategy, they didn't fit in. They created something to chase.

Mike Grigsby (14:27.253)
yeah.

Jody Holland (14:44.182)
So Mike, technology advisor, I got a question for you. What makes a company worth chasing?

Mike Grigsby (14:44.685)
Well, yeah. okay.

Mike Grigsby (14:52.963)
from a technology standpoint.

Jody Holland (14:54.434)
from any standpoint. just, when you think about a, I mean, there's a lot of technology advancements right now, but what makes them a blue ocean strategy that other people start going, well, why didn't we think of that? Because you're the innovator.

Mike Grigsby (15:06.115)
Oh, well, so I went from weird to innovator. I got promoted. I got promoted. One just sounds better. You know it's interesting that you bring that question up because technology is, think, still, I think it is the consummate level setter, right? You and I, when we were first starting out in business, we built a website to make it look like we were a

Jody Holland (15:11.288)
The same difference. You're a weird innovator.

Meghan Slaughter (15:15.618)
You're very well rounded.

Jody Holland (15:18.262)
Yeah.

Mike Grigsby (15:35.17)
very, very large corporation. We were using words like we and all this, like there was just you and I, right? It was just you and me. But technology was a level setter and it really allowed us to play in a game, play way, way, way beyond our current capabilities. But I think right now, because technology has done so much to level the game across so many different areas, I think what makes a company

Jody Holland (15:40.118)
synergistic, all the corporate jargon.

Mike Grigsby (16:03.457)
I think what companies need to think about to kind of grab their own blue ocean strategy is, I call it exploiting the voids. I'll give you 30 seconds to unpack this. You've heard the, most people have heard, and the audience have heard the story or the analogy of the big rocks in the jar, right? The idea was to get these big rocks in the jar. It was full. Okay, no, now we can put pebbles in and it's more full. Okay, no, now we can put sand in, then water, et cetera.

was first, that kind of analogy first came out and started making its way through the corporate world. It was really pushed as kind of a priority management or a time management deal. Hey, you make sure you get your big rocks in the jar first or else you put all the other stuff in, you won't be able to do it. When I first listened to it, I thought, good God, if I had been in the sand business, do you know how much money I would have made?

And the idea was exploiting the voids, right? If you get these big rocks in, what are the voids that are in between, the spaces in between, right? If you had been in the pebble business, you could have made a lot of money. If you'd been in the sand business, you could have made more money. If you've been in the water business, you could have done, right? It's the opportunity to exploit the voids. And I think that's really, it has nothing to do with the tech. It has everything to do with the application of that and how you're actually, crazy as it sounds, still solving other people's problems.

Jody Holland (17:23.51)
And I do think you're right. The greatest opportunities they're typically hiding in the places no one else is looking. Everybody's staring at the big rocks. And I know that was a Stephen Covey reference of time management, but the correlation that you did with that is awesome because people are not solving the sand problem. They're assuming the sand problem will take care of itself. They're solving the big rock problem. So think about in any business, doesn't matter what industry it's in.

Mike Grigsby (17:30.019)
That's right.

Jody Holland (17:53.635)
When we think about where to exploit the voids, one of the stories that came to mind, I wish I could remember which chef it was, but there was a chef that was going to open up a new restaurant in New York City, was years and years ago. And instead of going, what are the greatest restaurants do? He went to all the greatest restaurants and he figured out what are the greatest restaurants not do. And he figured out how to do all the things they were doing, plus the one or two things that they were consistently not doing.

And I want to say one of those was having an efficient and friendly reservation system. Cause most of them were like really snooty. I said like, there's nothing available for you. And you're like, ah, okay. How about we hire a nice person? That'd be, that'd make us weird. Let's do that one.

Mike Grigsby (18:33.731)
That's novel.

Jody Holland (18:44.536)
You're going to find a way to set yourself apart. And I like your exploiting the void saying, because I was thinking about when I started speaking, I asked questions, what annoys you most about speakers? Of every event planner that I worked with for like the first three years. Every one of them said high maintenance speakers. When they are high maintenance and demanding and then, and like they don't know their technology and you have to have somebody follow them around. I'm going be the easiest guy to work with.

And so that was the thing that I made as my differentiator was I was easy to work with. So what stories can you guys think of or what things can you think of that would really help drive this home that we've got to make sure that people understand that riches are in the niches.

Maleah Grigsby (19:32.726)
think about not as much of a story but more of a personal story but I think about Megan you and I had such a different outlook on life by being raised by these two weirdos but because you guys weren't afraid to you know you guys weren't afraid to not be in the norm we're not afraid to be in the norm and so I think there's there's a level of... probably so.

Meghan Slaughter (19:45.678)
Thank you.

Mike Grigsby (19:55.715)
It's all Jody's fault.

Maleah Grigsby (20:00.376)
But I think that's a testament to good leadership and of course I mean leadership in the household but of course that can translate to leadership in the professional space as well. As a leader you have to lead by example and if you yourself are not afraid to step outside of your comfort zone even if you're scared to, you don't know exactly what the outcome is gonna be, you don't know kind of what you're necessarily going towards but just striving to.

be different for the sake of building that practice and that habit, the people that follow you will begin to follow in that same practice.

Jody Holland (20:38.136)
And I think you've got a solid point there. That's probably what makes you who you are, makes you so good is that you don't want to be like everybody else. We have plenty of the everybody else's. If you look at 70 % roughly of people are average employees, why would you want to be average? And what was a car commercial, Mike, do you remember it was like Avis? We strive to be the okayest and they're making fun of everybody else.

Mike Grigsby (21:04.811)
Yeah, I think that was it.

Meghan Slaughter (21:05.174)
Okay.

Jody Holland (21:07.542)
And they're like, we don't want to be the okayest. We want to be the best. But everybody else is trying to be the okayest of everything.

Mike Grigsby (21:16.515)
You know, I don't know that everybody should strive to be the best. And what I mean by like superior. don't know that that should be your goal. I think you should, yeah.

Jody Holland (21:26.156)
Not compared to other people, but being the best compared to your capability, yes.

Mike Grigsby (21:31.862)
Yeah, I think you should absolutely learn to master your craft, right? Learn how to do what you do the best possible way. Exploit every void that you can within that. And you know, it's funny, we have as employers, as large corporations, and it's mostly for the sake of convenience and for the sake of logistics, right? We try to make things very easy to do because having to reinvent the wheel literally every single day. This is why

you know, organizations have the form 11 or have the process X or have the right. They don't want to reinvent the wheel every day. So it's, it's not that stuff that we're talking about. Be divergent and kind of break the molds on it. If it is go for it. But you know, the reality is you are, this is why I always talk about you are the deliverable. If 15 people apply for the same job, three people make the cut list, the short list, and then you get hired. Everybody had the same kind of

know, cover charge to get into the game. So why did they select you versus the other 14 candidates? And the idea is they selected you because of what you bring to the table, not because you can do the job description the best. They want you to take the job description as the cover charge and do more than that. So how do you think, how do you begin to think through that? You know, the, think the greatest compliment I've ever gotten in any job is like, we don't know what to do with you. Like, like,

you break the mold of the job description on day one. It's like, good, I've done my job. So think about it in terms like that.

Jody Holland (23:04.952)
But isn't that the goal? Because the crowd is reactive. A true leader is proactive. The crowd is waiting for what tells them they fit in. The true leader is like, this isn't working. And I do know that I've gotten myself in trouble multiple times, but I also know the reason I'm an entrepreneur is because it didn't fit in. And yet at the same time, I see from the outside in what turns corporations into high producing

Mike Grigsby (23:18.047)
Right.

Jody Holland (23:34.873)
corporations, whether it's a small corporation or a major one, I have a weird ability to walk in and go, here's what I sense. And I can't always articulate it in the very beginning, but I can sense where things are off and who doesn't fit. And it is not good for the person who doesn't fit to stay. And it's not good for them and it's not good for the organization.

Mike Grigsby (23:45.547)
Yep.

Jody Holland (24:01.206)
You don't always have certainty on that. And that's the part that I think a lot of people get scared about. And that's what you're saying is they, want to know before they do something like, this really going to work? And I remember giving you a little bit of a hard time when you were hired as a director of innovation for a city. I go, I don't think I've ever seen a city innovate. Like we have some really, really talented people that work for cities, but go back to form 11 and subset six.

Meghan Slaughter (24:22.286)
It's working.

Jody Holland (24:30.22)
paragraph four, line three. That's how we manage, is we manage by rules. And if you look at the evolution of leadership, it went from chaos to fear to executive function. And then finally, to become a super leader, going through what I describe in my book, Leadership Evo, you have to manage based on connection. That connection, that relationship makes you really, really stand apart.

Mike Grigsby (24:56.941)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Jody Holland (24:59.618)
But that's not normal either. Not in any organization. It's like, no, no, no, the rules say this. I also think breaking the mold on what we pay is really helpful. go, know, standard pay for this position is this. Well, if it's a great person, hire the great person for what it takes to hire the great person. And then as long as they make you a lot of money, keep paying them a lot of money. And if they don't, them the opportunity to excel elsewhere. Like you make decisions and you move forward.

Mike Grigsby (25:28.354)
Thank

Jody Holland (25:29.226)
And innovation is messy. Fitting in easy. Not fitting in is scary.

Mike Grigsby (25:32.235)
ideas.

Meghan Slaughter (25:38.156)
Yeah, and I think one of the problems that I've seen with new leaders, and you know, instead of trying to break the mold or be proactive, like both of you mentioned, they're not looking ahead at what's in front of them. They're still trying to fit in with the crowd around them, especially if it's someone who's promoted and has been working with these people. They still want to be everybody's friend. And something I always say is that as a leader, you should always be friendly, but you shouldn't necessarily be friends with everybody.

because you have to have that distinction of authority and you have to be willing to make those hard decisions. And if you're friends with somebody and they do something wrong, then you might be hesitant to write them up or correct them on it. But you have to be aware that everyone has a role to play and a job to do. And so as a leader, part of what you do is motivate your people and

correct them when they need correcting. you're offering feedback in a constructive way. You're not putting anybody down, but you're also not trying to fit in with them. And I've had several leaders both ways. And the things that I've noticed about the leaders who want to fit in with everybody is that they're making jokes and they're trying to hang out with people outside of work. But people don't look to them in times of crisis. They don't look to them as an authority figure. just

look to them as another person who works there. So you have to be really careful about that, I think, as a leader.

Jody Holland (27:09.784)
I have a story of this guy, Yoichi Hashimoto, who he was a surgeon and he was told that he lacked precision in his laparoscopic surgery, which is using those like little robotic arms and stuff. So he thought, you know what's really hard to do? Fold paper with a robot. So he started becoming absolutely obsessed with folding cranes like origami cranes.

with his surgical tools. And he spent several years just perfecting origami with surgical tools. Imagine somebody walks in and he's over there at the operating table and he's operating on the origami. What are you doing? I must save the crane, you know, or whatever. I don't know how he responded. That was probably a little weird there, but that was what he was doing. He practiced, practiced, practiced, practiced, Inspired from some of that, Brigham Young University goes,

Ooh, what if we started looking at origami for how we make surgical tools. And then they started making surgical tools based on the capacity to fold things into the tiniest little compartments. And they fundamentally changed a lot of robotic surgery that they could do things that they'd never been able to do before, because they figured out how to make the instrument smaller. Some dude decides to fold cranes.

You know, I would imagine he goes over Christmas and he's like, Mom, Dad, guess what? I'm practicing folding cranes with surgical tools. Eric, aren't you supposed to like be doing surgery with surgical tools and making a lot of money? they don't pay me for folding cranes. Don't worry. Yeah. I don't know what his parents would have responded with, but it's cross disciplinary learning that allows you to be weird enough to look at a different industry or different area or different thing and then apply it to yours. And if you look throughout history, there's just example after example.

Mike Grigsby (28:44.451)
you

Jody Holland (29:05.376)
of what people did. Da Vinci broke into morgues to tear apart bodies and study muscular structure so he'd be a better sculptor. Weird for sure. Illegal.

Mike Grigsby (29:17.505)
Well, he didn't have YouTube back then.

Jody Holland (29:19.98)
Yeah, mean, that's true. We'd have YouTube or AI. I no choice but to find some dead people to look at. But you look at all of that stuff and you go, if it weren't for the people who were willing to risk being rejected, we wouldn't have much of anything. Like being on the cutting edge of technology advancement, being on the cutting edge of anything requires stepping into the gap. You know, looking at that void and going, I'll go there.

Mike Grigsby (29:26.243)
That's right.

Jody Holland (29:49.337)
Let's see what that's like. So let's wrap this up. lightning round, you have 60 seconds or less. What is a way to help people not fit in, but to truly stand out?

Mike Grigsby (30:02.743)
Be comfortable with discomfort. You gotta embrace the suck. You gotta, you know, do it scared. I mean, all the sayings that are out there, I think the greatest thing that has ever helped me in my career is just exposure to something different. If you keep doing the same thing over and over, you're gonna keep getting the same thing over and over. You gotta do something different to get something different.

Jody Holland (30:24.821)
Excellent. Malia, you're up 60 seconds.

Maleah Grigsby (30:27.454)
I think my biggest piece of advice is for the emerging leaders as you look to the people that you want to become like, instead of trying to do what they did, look at the qualities that got them there and look at the ways that you can mimic but not exactly replicate.

Jody Holland (30:44.106)
Excellent. Megan, you're up. That was good.

Meghan Slaughter (30:46.506)
say think about what your five-year-old would do and do it. Don't be afraid to go back and be creative and be a little bit silly. If your five-year-old self can be proud of you now then I would say you're doing something right in life.

Jody Holland (31:03.116)
think that is awesome as well. And I would say from a leadership standpoint, you will develop what you tolerate. So if you want to stand out, figure out what you will not tolerate within your organizational culture and get rid of the intolerables, because history pretty much never remembers the people who blended in nicely. History remembers the people that had the courage to not be liked, the courage to stand up for what was right, even when it was difficult and the courage to be themselves.

My absolute objective and part of the affirmations I've started writing over the last few days, I give myself permission to just be me. Goofy, silly, sometimes irreverent, me. And I think that's a great place to be when you get to be yourself. So I want to thank you guys for being a part of the podcast today. We've got Malia Grigsby, project coordinator in Kansas City, Mike Grigsby, technology advisor all over the world.

Megan Slaughter, who's a communication strategist and amazing blogger. can check out her blog on JodyHolland.com and me, leadership strategist helping build great cultures. We look forward to seeing you on the next one. Make sure you share this with your friends and subscribe.