Jody Holland (00:09.314)
Hey guys, Jody Holland here with Megan Slaughter and Malia Grigsby. We have a fun show for you today. We're gonna be talking about how humility positively impacts leadership and how ego kills leadership. But Malia was the brainchild behind this podcast, so I'm gonna let you kick it off.
Maleah Grigsby (00:29.013)
Thank you, Jody. So I listened to way too much country music. And so if you can name that Tim McGraw song, extra bonus points for you. But we were talking about the the beauty of humility and kindness and one of the the lyrics, a little quote from it, it says, I know you've got mountains to climb, but always stay humble and kind. So even in the midst of trials, stay humble and stay kind.
Jody Holland (00:54.84)
And I like the humble and kind better than humble and hungry. Cause that that's what you hear all the time from yeah, all the influencers out there, you gotta stay humble, gotta stay hungry. And they're just telling you to grind harder and assume that you're bad. But I I think the mistake that we have in there is humble isn't thinking less of yourself. Humble is not thinking more of you than you think of others. So you're not diminishing self, but you're elevating other people.
Ego is thinking more of yourself than others. So you look down on people and insecurity is tearing yourself down compared to others. So that that perfect balance in the middle to me is humility. And I know Megan, you've blogged on this a few times. So jump in there with your thoughts from some of your blogs that you've done.
Meghan Slaughter (01:43.599)
I think as a whole, humility and kindness can take you so much further in life, but especially as a leader, because you're trying to build that trust and connection with your team. And so when you're elevating yourself on this pedestal and looking down on everyone else, it creates this disconnect and people are not going to come to you with problems if they think that you think they're better than them. So you need to be very careful about paying attention to your team.
Connecting with them and admitting to your mistakes. I apologize. We have some dogs here in the background.
Jody Holland (02:16.814)
Quite pleasant again.
So, all right. So I do think, you know, one of the things that she said there is admitting your mistakes and the vulnerability piece of humility, I think makes a huge difference. Because if you're willing to say, hey, I messed this up, then you just made it comfortable for other people to mess up as well. And you put yourself in a role where I think people naturally trust you.
So flip it back to you, Malia. So take us deeper into the song. Tell us a little bit more about always staying, you know, I know you got mountains to climb, but always stay hum humble and kind. What else was in the song that really kind of sparked your thoughts?
Maleah Grigsby (02:59.168)
Totally. I think it's it's mostly like so whatever, country music is all about like going back to roots and as traditional as it gets. But I love this idea of like it's talking about you can be all manly and strong and everything, but it's leading with this empathy and this kindness. And I I love that idea. I always talk about in this age of technology and this age of AI, embracing our humanness. And I think that kindness and that empathy is exactly what is allows us to embrace that humanness.
And that human connection with one another, kind of what Megan was saying too.
Meghan Slaughter (03:32.657)
I also think that none of us are infallible. And so when we are able to admit our own mistakes to our team, then it opens up the door for them coming to us with those sort of sorts of things. So then we can work together to resolve it and overcome obstacles together. But if you sit there and you act like you're above the rules or if you make a mistake and you don't own up to it, then nobody is going to be able to open up or trust you in that instance.
Jody Holland (04:02.594)
So I know I'm gonna go nerdy on you here, but I love Jim Collins and I've read everything that he has written, at least in the books and a number of his studies. But he talked about in good to great that he anticipated that the leaders that were the most successful would be like the larger than life, always demanding attention and really hard driving. And he found just the opposite. He called them level five leaders. And a level five leader was essentially like a combination of personal humility.
I understand that I don't know everything and I need a team and need to surround myself with great people and professional willpower. And the willpower was I do want to succeed and I'm gonna push myself really hard, but I'm gonna inspire other people. So the professionalism piece of it was learning motivation. The willpower piece was staying focused until you actually get there. But it he did, even in his research on good to great, describe a level five leader.
It's not the charismatic one, it's the humble one who doesn't give up on things and and doesn't give up on people too, I would argue.
Maleah Grigsby (05:09.598)
I actually want to go back to what you were saying, Jody, and the differentiation of ego, humble, and then insecure. Because one of the other lyrics I scrolled down a little further, and what it says is when the work you you put in is realized, let yourself feel the pride, but always stay humble and kind. So that differentiation between the ego and insecure, too, of understanding like you don't have to just disqualify all of the work that you do, or you can't ever feel proud of the things that you do.
We work hard and we ought to allow ourselves to feel the like good feelings that come from that and be proud of yourself for the work that you're putting in. It's just remembering to think about the people that have come alongside you and been on this journey with you that have allowed you to get here. It's not just you yourself. So that's the humility piece of that, but still feel proud of of the results that you've gained.
Jody Holland (05:59.374)
Yeah, because you're living into standards that you set for yourself. And I think about it even from the feedback standpoint, 'cause kindness a lot of times is mistaken in leadership is well, they're just too kind to those people. So they're thinking, well, that kindness means I'm not holding them accountable. In reality, kindness is I really want you to succeed. And so I'm going to make sure that I give you effective feedback, that I'm setting clear expectations. Like if I care for a person.
I will go out of my way to coach them and invest in them. If I didn't care for a person, I might give them platitudes and then figure out how to get rid of them. So a kind person cares deeply for others and they do have the hard conversations. And that's the part that I think we mistake when we think, well, I I'm just being too kind here. Well, if you're really being too kind, you would have lots of difficult conversations with people to make sure that they're getting what they need.
If you're being unkind, you're keeping things from people. You're not coaching, you're not counseling them, you're not setting clear expectations, you're not doing all of that. Jump back to the humble side. I think the thing that I see that most top-level execs are looking for when they hire mid and upper level executives is people who are coachable. And I I think about this from a sports standpoint. The miracle on ice, the about the 1984 hockey team, the Olympic team that
You know, decimated Russia. Like nobody thought they could do that. Well, they didn't get the most talented players, they got coachable players. They got people that would play on a team with one another who wanted to pursue excellence together, and they shared the credit. And go back to high school, there was a kid named Larry, and I'm not going to say his last name, but a kid named Larry that was on the basketball team that was just an arrogant jerk. And
Anytime he would go out on the court, he would blame everybody else for something that would happen that he screwed up. His shooting average like one in 20 shots he made. The problem was he took like 40 shots every time he got near the ball. So he scored more points, but he also turned a lot more of the the balls over to the other team because he missed so often. Somebody who is uncoachable, like everything is somebody else's fault.
Jody Holland (08:25.804)
Nothing they did is wrong. And then if something goes right, they're I'm taking the credit. That's arrogance. That is not the humility we're looking for. If you're teachable, if you share credit, if you admit your mistakes, if you appreciate the people around you, that's humility. I just think it's gotta be we can share credit endlessly, we can take credit once.
Meghan Slaughter (08:48.665)
I think that's huge. And I think a lot of people will mistake humility and kindness as weakness. But if anything, it's showing strength in your resolve and your commitment to the team. So being able to talk to your team, share that credit with them, maybe coach them and correct some things that go wrong, it's going to take you so much further than just ignoring any of the problems, whether it was a problem of your own creation or if it was someone of your team.
Jody Holland (09:18.478)
So I think humility is gonna determine am I willing to keep learning? Staying hungry is still important, but that determines will I keep growing? That's that professional will that Collins talked about. And kindness determines whether or not people will actually like me, want to know me, and trust me. And you know, our tagline and our business is become the leader you would follow. So you think, what are all the characteristics of a leader that you would run away from? So I'm gonna ask you that one, Melia.
What's the characteristics of leader that go, Nope, wouldn't follow them for free pizza?
Maleah Grigsby (09:53.601)
I think the biggest thing that always comes to mind and and this is what has steered me away from a lot of jobs and wanting to change positions is a leader who is unwilling to learn from the people that they are leading and and willing or not willing to lead by example, thinking that they're too too good to do like the menial tasks or whatever. but a good leader, there's no task that's too big or too small.
Jody Holland (10:23.33)
That's awesome. All right, Meg, what would you run away from?
Meghan Slaughter (10:27.693)
Unfortunately, I think there's a lot of things that I would run away from. And I've had the opportunity to work from s for some people who have made me want to run away. But I think somebody who places the blame on everybody but themselves and they don't recognize the team effort that goes into creating something amazing for an organization, or if they feel like
They are the organization because they are a part of the organization, but so is everybody else who works there. And so understanding that each person plays a role, whether it's housekeeping services or it's top level executives, everybody is important. And so you need to understand the value in each position.
Jody Holland (11:13.098)
Excellent. So John Wooden is one of the great coaches from history. And he had a really good quote, and I think it ties into this podcast well. I'm gonna read it to you. Talent is God given, be humble. Fame is man given, be grateful. Conceit is self-given, be careful.
And I thought that was pretty good because it kind of hits the levels that we were talking about is you can be talented and still not be famous. People want to watch you, want to, you know, be a part of it. And I think sports entertain us really well. So we we have people that become famous. Well, it's easy to cross that line when a person becomes famous and think, I am special.
And Mike not being on here, but one of the stories that I've heard him tell on speech multiple times was this guy is a four-star general, gets picked up at the airport in a limousine, like goes to this whole thing about being up there in a perfect ceramic mug in front of the deal, and they had his room ready for him when he got to the hotel. Like everything was laid out perfect. And then he retires. And the next year he comes back and speaks at the same conference and he has to hail a cab from
from the airport and he flew economy instead of first class once he was retired. he had to check himself into the hotel, which is not a big deal. Most grown adults can do that. So he checks himself in. There's no fruit basket. There's no thank you so much for being here or anything like that, waiting in the room. He gets there the next day and he's like, Hey, I was gonna sit back and grab a cup of coffee. And somebody says, yeah, right over there is some styrofoam cups and a pot of coffee. He walks over and pours himself a cup of coffee and a styrofoam cup.
And he goes up to the stage and he says, What I realize is my title, my position is what deserved the first class ticket, the limo ride, the fancy room, the fruit basket, and the ceramic mug. Not me. Now that I'm retired, I don't have that title. We celebrate the authority/slash position that a person is in, but we're not really celebrating the person. And second example of that, and then I'll
Jody Holland (13:25.272)
I'll let you guys talk again. Is Morgan Housel, who is an economic psychologist. And he's really fascinating. The book that he he wrote several books, but the book that I'm referencing here is The Psychology of Money. And he talked about when he was 18 years old, starting off in college, he got a job as a valet at a fancy restaurant. And this guy pulls up in a Ferrari. He's like, that is a gorgeous car. And he likes runs over there, beats everybody else, and he gets to go park the Ferrari.
And he realizes he has zero idea what the guy looks like. He can't watch for him to come back out because he never even looked at the guy. He just grabbed the keys, got in the Ferraris. Like, for all I know, the guy was actually a Sasquatch. You have no idea what he looked like. So he couldn't watch for him to come back to go get his car for him, because you get a bigger tip bringing the car back because he wasn't paying attention. So it wasn't the person that was important driving the fancy car.
It was the car that was important and the person just happened to be driving it. And I I think those are lessons for us to remember that people are not really impressed with us. They're impressed with the thing we did or a position we hold, but we are just another human and we've when we keep that perspective that helps us stay humble. So and now I'll quit talking. Sorry.
Meghan Slaughter (14:47.153)
And I love that story. And I was thinking as you were talking about that, how the title is what gives you certain liberties. But even once you have the title, you still have to earn your keep. So once you get a position, you have to try to maintain it. And so you do that by doing a good job and connecting with your team. But you can't just act however you want to act and ignore the rules, ignore the mission of the organization, just do your own thing. You still have to be committed.
to the job and you can still work your way up from there, but the position doesn't give you liberty to let go of your responsibilities.
Jody Holland (15:26.412)
Yeah, or look down on other people.
Maleah Grigsby (15:30.42)
Also, I I think it's an interesting comparison. So I'm coming from the nonprofit perspective, and the nonprofit versus for profit is very different when it comes to titles and organization structure and everything. And I think that's one of the lessons that I'm really grateful that I've been able to learn from the nonprofit space is titles really are fake here. Like it it's this made up thing that like it's you're trying to fit this kind of sort of job description.
which also job descriptions are almost non existent in the nonprofit world. But you're trying to fit this into this mold and you need to be flexible and fluid and all of these things. And so there's a a level of yes, you might be the CEO of an organization, you might be the VP of an organization. but at the at the end of the day in the nonprofit world it's kind of like we're all just driving towards the same goal and like you're saying, Megan, like
Jody Holland (16:01.846)
Mm.
Maleah Grigsby (16:26.036)
the mission is usually at the forefront of everyone's mind, not as much a statusing or or whatever that might look like. whereas in the for profit world, I think they can learn a lot from that of you're you're a thousand percent right, where it's like this title that you're given and you like are get to wear this name badge of honor and everything. But at the end of the day, a lot of leaders that step into those CEO CEO or C suite roles end up just
going with the title and then kinda sit back, kick their feet up and like, I made it and then what what's left to do, you know? So I I appreciate that contrast. and I think it's a good lesson for leaders to to understand.
Jody Holland (17:07.054)
I would agree with that. So I'm trying to think of of a couple other concepts in there. I've read a lot of C.S. Lewis. I don't know if ever read him. Like we read Chronicles of Narnia when I was a little kid, but as an adult, I've read The Great Divorce and Screwtape Letters and a few others. And he talks a lot about humility throughout his books. And I'm trying to remember the exact quote. I haven't found it yet, but there it is.
Humility is not thinking less of yourself, but thinking of yourself less. And I always like that because CSO is just one, he had a way with words, but two, he had a way of helping you understand life isn't about you. Life is about what you can do through other people. And, you know, I think we don't we don't shine so that people see us. What we're supposed to do is we're supposed to illuminate so other people can see more of themselves.
If we can help other people by lifting them up, by encouraging them, by building them up, that's where their potential starts to be released. And I, a great leader, the number one thing they're doing is to transform people into the better version of themselves. But if I'm trying to get everybody to see me and I'm shining a spotlight in everybody's eyes to show how bright I am, nobody sees me. They just kind of wince and turn away. But if I am
electrifying them and helping them light up their own path, then we see everything so much more clearly as a team. I think our job is to illuminate, not to shine.
Meghan Slaughter (18:41.969)
I think that way that makes a team successful overall is when you are all trying to help one another out and instead of tearing each other down. And so you're giving them the opportunity to shine within their own role and do the things that they're good at. And you're also recognizing that at the end of the day we are all human and we are all trying our best. And there are gonna be bad days. There will be days where we're off where our mind is somewhere else. And so you
You give each other a little bit of grace while still pushing one another to become the best version of themselves.
Jody Holland (19:18.22)
Yep. That was a really good ending thought for you. What's your ending thought, Malia?
Maleah Grigsby (19:23.294)
I I'm gonna take the very end of the song and it says when you get where you're going, don't forget, turn back around and help the one next in line. Always stay humble and kind.
Jody Holland (19:36.234)
And I don't think I can top that. So I think that's going to be the close right there for us. I want to thank you guys for being on here. please consider liking and subscribing and sharing this with your friends. We love doing what we do and we want to keep sharing insight. So please help us get the message out there. We will see you on the next podcast.
