Jody Holland (00:10.101)
Hey guys, Jody Holland here. We have a family affair today. This is going to be a fun one. My wife, Renee Holland, who has a master's in communication, is going to be joining us. She specialized in her studies on crisis communication. Also have Megan Slaughter on and myself. So we're going to have a good time talking about what happens when a bad time happens. So, Renee, I'm going let you kick it off. Give us a little bit of an introduction about what crisis communication is.
Renae Holland (00:37.176)
Well, crisis communication, I I believe the best people to look to as a resource for this is Matthew Seeger and Timothy Selnau, who have done extensive research on how companies and organizations can prepare for a crisis and as well as giving 10 best practices for how to handle crisis communication. Basically, crisis communication varies from business to business or industry to industry, but it's having a plan in place before something goes wrong.
Jody Holland (01:06.815)
I I think the struggle is, let's go back to COVID, for example. I didn't live through the 1918 Spanish flu. And that was the last like true global pandemic that we had. I wasn't born until a few years after that. So what happens when an organization is dealing with something that they've literally never dealt with before? In fact, nobody's dealt with it.
Renae Holland (01:30.905)
Well, unfortunately, that becomes your learning process of all the things that you do wrong, and then you find ways to fix them so that the next time it happens, you can be better prepared for it. But you mentioned COVID, and COVID was one of those things that you know we didn't really know how to best prepare for it. But now that we've been through something like that as a pandemic, we can now look at that and say, what are the things we did right? What are the things we did wrong? a lot of my research focused on the fires that happened in Maui, Hawaii, and how communication
put out to the organizations in the area, the people in the area, the emergency workers, and how to handle these things. And they were able to go back and even look at that and find ways that they could improve their communication and resources being allotted into the right places. Because that's a lot of the problem we had. And you think about the shortages during the pandemic, it's because we didn't know how to best prepare for things. And everybody knows if you fail to plan, you plan to fail.
Jody Holland (02:31.199)
Yeah, so true. All right, Meg, you have bachelor's in journalism. And I know you studied a lot of this from a public relations standpoint as well. one of the things that I've always thought is that it really isn't the crisis that kills the company. It's more the way they handle or like Renee just said, don't handle dealing with the crisis. So talk a little bit from a journalistic standpoint. How do people get in front of a story?
Meghan Slaughter (02:57.245)
I think what's difficult is that everyone's trying to get the information out quickly and keep people informed. And in doing so, sometimes there's some oversight as far as the information that you're providing to people because you want people to be aware of what's going on. You don't want to freak them out, but you want them to be in the loop. And so you're updating as you go. And sometimes that means that you're going to put out information that
Has not yet been verified, especially in times of crisis. And so when you come back and you say, actually that's not true, then you kind of lose trust from the public. So it's really important that when you are experiencing a crisis, that you are trying to get accurate information out, not just quick information out. So you're going directly to first sources and you're asking questions.
And then you're typing it up as you go and you're communicating that with your organization or with the public. And you let them know that the story is developing and that you will keep updating them along the way. And that can be really difficult because if you're overloading them with information too quickly, then it's hard to decipher as the audience what you can trust and whose advice to listen to. Because organizations are competing to see who can get the information out first, who can break the story.
And they are doing it for the public's good, but sometimes they're also doing it to compete with one another. So you have to be a little bit careful there.
Jody Holland (04:30.281)
Yeah. A little bit of their own good. Yeah.
Renae Holland (04:32.545)
And a display.
Meghan Slaughter (04:34.503)
Yeah.
Renae Holland (04:34.55)
In addition to that, I would also say the people who are trying to get that information also have to think about how much information they're putting out there. But most importantly, and one of the things that Seeger and Celna would tell you is being honest, frank, and open with the audience of the journalists that are taking down this information. Because if you simply say no comment, you also lose the trust of your public. You also lose the people following you for information. Because if everybody's saying no comment, I have nothing to say, they
Immediately start to turn away from you. So you have to give some information, even when you don't have all the information. But the best way for organizations to respond to that is by saying, at this point, this is what we know. And if you make the promise that you'll continue to provide information to those journalists, make sure you follow through on that promise because that's another reason where you lose your following there is when you promise to give updates and then you don't.
Jody Holland (05:31.841)
So that accuracy, transparency, or frankness, like what you were describing there, that's kind of the key. But also, I want to go back to something you said, Megan, that you don't want to look like you're lying or changing your story, even though sometimes you don't have all the information. So you try to be as accurate as you can be without being misleading. So I I've always thought be careful in the way you open up the phrase instead of saying things like, Here's what's happening. You like what you described a second ago, here's what we know so far.
Or here's what we're looking into. Yeah. Or here's what we know at this point. I also think, especially when it's dealing with a company, you see a lot of times journalists will will say, We reached out but did not get a response for comment. Like the story broke at 3:30 in the morning at 6 a.m. and they didn't get a comment. Well, of course they didn't get a comment. If there was some major crisis going on, that's what they were dealing with. So I I think that.
Renae Holland (06:02.699)
At this point.
Jody Holland (06:27.445)
You've got to read into the story, but as a business, you've got to get in front of the story to try to at least persuade the narrative. You may not be able to control the narrative, but you got to persuade it. The way I look at it is your first audience that's judging you is actually your employees. So we do worry about the public, but I also like, I think about there was a bank that sold here in town. Anybody from Amaral listening to this knows what I'm talking about.
Where it was in the media that the sale had gone through before the employees found out. That's just improper order of communication. And I think they created their own crisis and it caused a lot of employees to quit and a lot of of their patrons, people with deposits there to go, I think we'll go somewhere else. So I do think you got to be very careful about that stuff because your first audience is the people that work for you, that you want to keep them in the loop.
Rumors spread fast and escalate. I a little rumor becomes a big rumor if you're not careful. So I want you to talk a little bit, Renee, on the fire stuff, talk a little bit about the empathy side of things. Cause I know that was part of your research was it isn't just about reporting the facts, it's about caring about the people impacted by what happened.
Renae Holland (07:44.505)
Well, and in portraying that empathy, that's also where social media became a really big point of how you use communication during a crisis because you know, people who didn't live on Hawaii on any of the islands out there, they're watching what people are posting on TikTok, what are they posting on Instagram, what are they posting on Facebook, and that built up honestly a really big following of people who wanted to contribute, who people who wanted to help. So in situations like that.
This is where you build that empathy, you build a support system that's offsite from where the crisis is actually happening. Now, that one we're talking about fires. If we go into something like industry and you take like the Tylenol crisis when somebody had spiked the Tylenol years ago with a poison that would
you know, be very dangerous. And so that, you know, Tylenol was very quick to make a swift response to pull all Tylenol. You know, that kind of thing it you're looking at industry versus man man-made tape type things versus natural disasters. so the empathy in that case was everybody was very reactive to how good Tylenol
Jody Holland (08:33.728)
Was fine idea.
Renae Holland (08:54.366)
was about immediately pulling everything off the shelf, telling people to stop. They didn't delay in their communication. They got that out there. Stop taking the medication. Pull it off the shelves. And so depending on how you respond to whatever type of crisis it is, is what's going to happen about your following. Seeger and Selnow called that building up a reservoir of goodwill. And in doing that, it's how have you done business prior to the crisis? And I think that's something too is
These people, whether or not they're gonna have empathy for you as a company, whether they're gonna stay with you, whether they're gonna support these people or industries, is dependent upon how have I been treated in the past, which is part of why you really wanna have a crisis communication plan in place. And you mentioned your employees being your first audience. A lot of times companies don't see the value in having somebody in charge of crisis communication until a crisis happens. And then they're like, who do we turn to?
Well, if you haven't assigned a person that's going to help assimilate the information, who's going to be the go-to person for whether you're at the C-suite level or whether you're the hourly employee, you need somebody in your organization that's going to be the person to go to for crisis communication. And that's not your CEO or CFO. They're too busy handling other things. So you need an employee that you designate to be your crisis communication planner.
Jody Holland (10:14.827)
So think about that then, Megan. Go ahead. Jump in.
Meghan Slaughter (10:15.027)
Yeah.
Just to say that I think there are different types of crises which will determine how you communicate during those times. So, of course, you mentioned natural disasters and medical emergencies. There are also organizational scandals and political stories, things like that are going to be presented in a different light from one another. And so you approach that in a different manner. And from a journalistic standpoint,
You are there to report the facts and the facts alone. You are not there to be empathetic. And some people find that really disturbing, but they're just trying to get in front of the information and get it out to the public. And you can decipher that however you're going to decipher it as somebody who's consuming that information. Now, from a PR person, they're going to spin the story to their own advantage. So
If an organization is experiencing a scandal, then their PR person is going to break the news and they're going to spin it in a way that says, well, here's actually how you're benefiting, or, you know, it's not as bad as it looks. Here's what's going on. So you have to be considerate of where you're getting information from because you have to be able to look at the information and decide for yourself.
Jody Holland (11:28.534)
Yeah.
Meghan Slaughter (11:39.384)
what's the truth that's coming from this and what should I believe? And I do think that social media is really powerful in that regard because you can kind of crowdsource. And so if a lot of people are posting about it, you're putting the pieces together yourself and you're saying, okay, this is a common theme. This person is experiencing this during this disaster. And this person over here had a similar experience. So somewhere in the middle is what I should be taking into consideration.
So it is really interesting. You do need to be very wary as the consumer of the information and decide for yourself what you're going to take from it.
Jody Holland (12:13.206)
Yeah.
Renae Holland (12:18.912)
Although I I'll I'll say in defense of companies and organizations, I think that they've realized that the spin doctor approach does not work like it used to. People are not gonna respect them when they find out that they lie. So that's why one of the things that's so important and and really valued in a crisis communication plan now is that you are being honest and frank and open, even when you don't have all the information. But don't try to twist the information because that ends up coming up and biting the company in the butt later.
And they lose business, they lose sponsors, they lose affiliations because people say, you lied. And so you're right, Megan, the spin doctor approach was not always trusted. But I think now what people are truly looking for from an organization in this terms of a crisis is, are you being honest with me? Because when we find out we've been deceived, we're done with them, whatever it is.
Jody Holland (12:50.205)
Yeah. Never lie.
Meghan Slaughter (12:53.619)
Yeah.
Jody Holland (13:08.789)
Yeah. And Dan Dan Arielli had some interesting stuff. I'll let you jump back in. I just want to throw this out there. He wrote the book Misbelief. And he was really telling his own very painful story about how people just started making stuff up about him. And this was during COVID. And he had consulted with multiple governments. And one of the things he consulted on was they asked, Hey, if we're gonna put kids in school, try to keep education consistent, you know
Meghan Slaughter (13:09.203)
Yeah. I think
Jody Holland (13:34.303)
What can we do to keep him as safe as possible? And he said, Well, look at the CDC guidelines, and it is difficult on kids to be isolated. So you don't want to have them isolated. And then somebody turned that you don't want them to be isolated, and then paired it with some comment where he was joking around on a podcast and like, Dan R hates children and wants them to suffer. And what he described in there is that when you hear rumors.
What we're dealing with is an information vacuum problem. So it is the absence of verifiable information. So to both y'all's point about being honest and accurate and up front, that helps kind of get rid of the rumors. But once the rumors start, trying to defend yourself directly against every rumor typically makes it worse. You have to write your own narrative and sometimes just go, there's just some people out there, they're gonna say some crazy, awful stuff.
I'm gonna move forward. The more you defend yourself, the more they go, look, he has to defend himself. He must be guilty. It's emotion clouds logic. And that's the same thing we ta teach in our conflict courses as emotion clouds logic. So now be quiet and you can talk Meg.
Meghan Slaughter (14:48.089)
Just going to circle back to I don't think that it's that PR people are lying. I think that they are giving popcorn bits of information at times. And they're doing that because they're trying to protect the company. And I want to be very clear, I have a lot of respect for PR people. So that that is nothing against them. They are doing their job. That's what they're hired to do is protect the company and present the information to the public in a way.
that kind of alleviates some of the backlash that they may face. And so it's not that they're lying or necessarily twisting the truth. They're you just want to be you want to ensure as the consumer of that information that it's the whole truth and you're getting all of the information. And that's why you go to multiple sources to look at things and not just take one person's words at face value.
Jody Holland (15:38.697)
And and go back to your Tylenol example, Renee, from the early nineteen eighties. I mean, I I was ten years old, I think, when that happened. And Tylenol, as a result of that, so think about crisis communication, the plan for the next time. They were the pioneers behind safety seals on medications. Back nineteen eighty two, before all that happened, you could just open up a bottle and drop something in and put it back in the box and you're good to go.
And so anybody could have tampered with it. And it wasn't Yeah.
Renae Holland (16:09.25)
Which is actually what happened with Tylenol, because it wasn't a company problem. It wasn't a production. It was someone walked into a store and contaminated the smallest batch of Tylenol, but it caused a nationwide reaction.
Jody Holland (16:20.841)
Yeah. And it was in Chicago. And then but Johnson and Johnson pulled it's something like I wrote about this not too long ago, thirty-one million bottles off the shelf, which that'd be equivalent today of about a hundred million dollar recall, which would be one of the biggest recalls ever, especially for a pharmaceutical company. So they did the right thing, but what they did is said, Here's what we're doing next to ensure that this never happens again. Cause they had close to forty percent of the the
painkiller market, I think, for over-the-counter painkillers. And normally something like that is a death sentence for a company. Like they are done. Something like that happens because go back to the trust factor. I'm not going to trust a company of if possibly their manufacturing stuff could have killed me. Well, it was shown that it wasn't manufacturing. Law enforcement talked about it. The CDC talked, like everybody talked about that it wasn't a Johnson and Johnson problem. It said it doesn't matter if it's our problem or not.
We love our consumers more than we love money. That's why we're pulling all this off. We're gonna fix it. If you have a bottle of Tylenol, throw it away and just come in and tell us and we'll give you a new one when the new ones come out. Like you didn't have to verify hardly anything and you got taken care of, but they did a triple seal, not just a foil cap like what a lot of them did, but then they put a the bottle cap on it and they did a plastic shrink over that and then they sealed the box.
So they had three different seals, and it was the first company to ever do that. Within a year and a half, Tylenol had all their market share back. So that's why I say crisis is gonna happen, things are gonna go sideways. If you if you think about the sense of belonging that the people who work for Johnson and Johnson had, they had to have been so proud of the response of their company that they're like, I will do anything for this company.
So I think that that's the other side of it is if you do this right, like the Maui fires and people wanting to support and you know, things like that, you you really can make a very positive impact coming out of a bad situation. So you don't want the bad situation, but coming out on the other side can be fantastic if you do it the right way.
Renae Holland (18:33.292)
Which just to add one other point, that's another best practice is forming stakeholder partnerships with all of the people that you deal with. And you've got to do that before any crisis happens. Just like Tylenol had good sets of employees, they had a good public image. It you've got to work at that before the crisis ever occurs, whatever the crisis is, which I think is also why a lot of organizations will sponsor things in their communities. It's not just to get your name out.
It's to establish a relationship so that you trust this company. And if something should happen to this company, you know they're still there to protect you to the best of their abilities.
Jody Holland (19:11.133)
Absolutely.
Meghan Slaughter (19:12.691)
I do think also that when it comes to crisis communication, you as an organization need to be watching and learning from different organizations and what they're doing because sometimes they will face an issue that you haven't yet experienced. And if you one day face that issue, you can learn from them and you can understand what works and what doesn't work with the public. a really great example of that is ice cream. A lot of ice cream cartons.
don't have seals and they didn't used to have seals. And there were some viral videos of people going into grocery stores, taking the lid off of the ice cream cartons, licking them, putting the lid back on, and leaving them at the grocery store. So then somebody else would purchase that ice cream and it was contaminated because somebody had licked it. And one of the things that Ben and Jerry's did in response to that, they started putting seals around the top of their cartons.
Because they believe that it is important to protect the consumer. And so even though it wasn't one of their ice cream cartons in those videos, they weren't directly responsible for it. It was something that was unfortunate that happened in the public. They still responded to that in a way that was very considerate of their customers. And so they just wanted to protect them. And and I think they had a lot more.
Customers coming to them after that because they show that they care so much.
Renae Holland (20:44.812)
And just like you said, people learned from that mistake because it wasn't just Ben and Jerry's that started protecting their ice cream garden. Several other companies and big brands out there said, we're gonna do the same thing. So multiple, it was definitely a learn from somebody else's crisis and they found a way to fix it.
Jody Holland (21:03.061)
Yeah. I think that when a crisis happens, it's either going to be a reputation builder when you handle it the right way, or a reputation destroyer when you handle it the wrong way. And I I think that really has to do with what you just described with Ben and Jerry's or what you talked about, Renee, with Tylenol, that the values of the organization, you're going to know if they're real or not the moment a crisis happens. Because if you say things like, you know, we want to make sure that we take care of our consumer.
Meghan Slaughter (21:03.411)
Exactly.
Jody Holland (21:33.567)
And then something bad happens and you go, unless it costs us money. Now they know none of that mission, none of that value stuff actually meant anything. And that's that's what I think the consumer, the end user, or the public themselves, they're watching and they're evaluating is this real or not? So I'm gonna get final thoughts. we'll start with you, Renee, since you kicked it off. What are what are your final parting thoughts on crisis communication?
Renae Holland (21:59.425)
I think every organization needs to have a plan in place. And in that planning process, everything starts way before the crisis begins. So there's a lot that goes into it, something we can delve into later and you know, find more information about. But most definitely you've got to start planning if you haven't already.
Jody Holland (22:18.891)
Megan, your thoughts?
Meghan Slaughter (22:20.819)
I think the most important thing is just being as open and as transparent as you can be with the general public. And I think that it can go a long way to have open lines of communication from your consumer as well so that they can bring concerns to you and you can respond to those in a professional and quick manner.
Jody Holland (22:42.291)
And I'll kind of end with what I was saying just a second ago. You you're going to either prove or disprove your values based on how you handle when things don't go the right way. And it doesn't matter if you're a governmental entity, a private sector, a nonprofit, or whatever, if you're covering things up instead of dealing with them openly, honestly, and directly, you're going to be in trouble. And to Renee's point, if you don't have a plan and a designated point for dealing with
when the next crisis happens, because at some point it will, you're gonna find yourself in a world of hurt. So I just encourage you guys, take the time to create a plan, study a little bit about crisis communication, and then look at what other people, like Megan was saying at one point in here, look at what other people have dealt with that is similar to what you might deal with. And that prepares you. Thank you guys for being a part of this. We've got Renee Holland, Megan Slaughter, and me, Jody Holland. I'm gonna encourage you if you like the show, share it with your friends.
And send us your ideas for shows. This was one of the ideas that was submitted. So until next time, we'll see you then.