Mike Grigsby (00:00.046)
Be a good one.
Jody Holland (00:13.381)
Hey guys, Jody Holland here with Mike Grigsby and Megan Slaughter, and we're gonna be talking about personality and specifically personality in the workplace and how that drastically impacts the way you like or dislike a person. And then we're gonna try to debunk a couple of things in that I don't think you like or dislike people's personalities. I think you like or dislike people's behaviors, which are manifested from their personality.
So give you a quick history as we get started here. I want you to think all the way back to late 1800s, early 1900s. People like Carl Jung and Sigmund Freud took a very clinical approach to it. And they would look at people and go, Here is what is wrong with you? You know, however they spoke back then, I don't know exactly. But it was, yeah, it's just what I imagine if they were talking to me today, how messed up I am. They would look at it and they would describe the
Mike Grigsby (00:57.838)
Sounded just like him.
Jody Holland (01:07.387)
There were the flaws in your personality. And if you could figure out that flaw, that defect, then you would have a quote unquote normal personality. Then fast forward to people like Gordon Allport, who did a lot of the research that resulted in us coming up with the big five personality theory. You can spell ocean or canoe, whichever way you prefer it, but conscientiousness, agreeableness, neuroticism, which everybody wants to be called neurotic.
openness and extroversion were the five characteristics. And they had just taken a couple of research assistants that go through the entire dictionary and find all the adjectives that describe what a person acts like or what they behave like. And that was the start of what's known as trait theory within personality. Fast forward to some laws and regulations being passed in 1991, and you couldn't really use personality testing.
To determine who you were going to hire or who you were going to promote. So they started really modifying the tools and looking for behavioral predictability. You can hire or fire people based on their behaviors, but not core personality. So most of the work that's out there now is centered around using personality for developmental or coaching growth, using behavioral predictability for hiring, succession planning, that kind of stuff.
And then just looking generally at personality to go, how do I understand this person? There's theories, personality tests like FIRO B, which is a relationship profile. Husband and wife, or two significant others might take the test and they go, Are you sure you're ready for this? Are you sure you're ready for that? And they can figure out if they're gonna actually click together, or it's gonna end in tragedy and divorce or whatever else, hopefully not on dateline. So
That's just like a very, very quick history of personality and the personality theory. One of my favorite tools is the disc assessment. William Moulton Marson in the 1940s came up with the concept of dominance, influence, steadiness, and conscientiousness. And then fast forward about 10 years after that, Dr. Walter Clark was like, I'm gonna take his research and turn it into a tool. So the the assessment itself wasn't until the 1950s.
Mike Grigsby (03:03.371)
You
Mike Grigsby (03:11.181)
Yeah.
Jody Holland (03:31.153)
And it was Dr. Clark that came up with a way to measure those core areas instead of just describing them. And the reason I like the disc and that that style of assessment is it's about temperament. And you can change your temperament. You're not really gonna change your personality, but you can definitely change your temperament. So I'm curious, Megan, what tool or tools do you really like?
Mike Grigsby (03:45.325)
Yeah.
Meghan Slaughter (03:53.838)
Honestly, I've taken so many of them, and there are a lot of really great ones out there, but I would have to say my top two are the disc and the PXT Select. And the PXT Select talks about your workplace characteristics, and that is largely determined by your behaviors, your thinking patterns, and how you approach certain situations. And I think that that corresponds a lot to personality.
It's not a personality assessment, but I do think that you can see glimpses of people's personalities through that. And I think it's really neat. I think you can get a lot of great insights from that. And I love being able to look at my own profiles and think, you know what, that actually really makes sense now that I see it on paper. Because we don't always realize how we present ourselves and how we approach things.
But once we take an assessment and it's laid out with these facts right in front of you, you can kind of see, okay, now that you mention that, you know, that is true about me. And you can use that to your advantage. sometimes, you know, you may not always want to present certain ways. And so once you have that in front of you, you can kind of make that change, or you can lean into your strengths because of it, once you know them.
Jody Holland (05:14.959)
Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. How about you, Mike? What do you like?
Mike Grigsby (05:17.005)
Yeah. I'm in the same boat with both of you. The disk tool is so beneficial, specifically because it's around temperament, not just personality. And when you're able to, you know, when I use that and work with teams, it maps easily on top of team dynamics and working through how individuals work with each other, even to the point where
even if you haven't given someone a disc assessment, right, let's talk about it from a sales standpoint, right? If you're a salesperson calling individual, know, prospective clients or whatever the case is, even if you haven't taken, given that person a disc assessment, you know those four qualities so well, you can begin to identify and surmise, of speculate what that other person is, and then you just adopt your behavior accordingly.
And here's what I've told people is like, even if you get it wrong, the fact that you're thinking about how you are showing up to that other person, changing the dynamic of that call. And it makes you already on a plane of saying, you know, it's, isn't just about me. I'm thinking about you and it just changed the dynamics of it. So the, the disc tool, and there's a lot of other ones out there. There's some really simplest, simplistic disc tools. There's the disc plus, there's the performance indicator, Jody, which you and I,
Remember using which was modeled on that. again, I like it not just for what it gives you, but I like the team dynamics that you can do out
Jody Holland (06:51.055)
Yeah, I do too. And I I should have mentioned the Myers Briggs type indicator as well, because it was an evolution past the big five theory. Really kind of took what the big five was, made it make more sense. Plus, it kept people from being called neurotic, which, like I said, most people are not very happy if you label them, you're truly neurotic. They they never go, thank you for noticing. I I thought nobody was paying attention to how crazy I was.
Mike Grigsby (07:15.434)
Hehehehehe
Jody Holland (07:18.949)
So neuroticism is that over concern, that kind of stuff. But I I've taken a bunch of the different ones. And something that's in interesting to me is knowing we don't really change personality much, you can take three different tools to understand different aspects of self. So taking something like the big five or the 16 PFI, which is personality factor indicators or the Myers-Briggs type indicator, that tells you a lot about how you were developed when you were zero to six years old.
The disc, I think, is a really good one for why you model what you model, your temperament. That was what was going on in your life from seven to about 13 years old, and then evolving after that. And that's where we learn a lot of our workplace behaviors in that second stage of growth. Then the third one is the Enneagram. And I don't know if you've taken the Enneagram or not, but it's really fascinating to me because when you look at the Enneagram, like,
I am a challenger and an achiever. And that is no shock to Mike because I've I love having these conversations, like, are you sure that's right? You should do this. And like pushing back and challenging people to move further in life, and then always striving for what comes next. But it's broken down into nine categories. There's the perfectionist, the helper, the achiever, the individualist, the investigator, the loyalist.
The enthusiast, the challenger, and the peacemaker. And I did not get I well, I like that one because that third stage, starting at about 14 years old, you start going, okay, now this is how I'm projecting myself into the world. So personality is what's going on inside me. Disk is what's going on in combination of me and how I want to be perceived. And then the Enneagram is how I'm a
Mike Grigsby (08:46.273)
Yeah. And good for you. You remember those.
Jody Holland (09:12.593)
Adopting or adapting myself to the world around me. And getting that perspective on all three of those is really helpful. Now, the practical one, going back to what Megan said about the PXT select, that's just probably the most practical tool that I think I've used. And the reason isn't the test, the reason is the reporting. So any of the tools that you're using, the reporting is really where the value is. And I've seen a lot of these tools where they're like,
Just take the test and we will certify you on how to go interpret the whole thing yourself. And it's got, you know, five graphs, and then you're supposed to make up what it means on every single person that you test. You end up losing a lot because people's internal biases, like they don't like something about the person. They're like, well, it says this, but this is what it really means on this person. The straight reporting keeps that more legitimate. So the PXT select.
The manager to employee report is my favorite because the number one reason that people get fired at work is their style, what we call it, personality, doesn't fit with the boss. It's not even because they're not doing the job or can't doing the can't do the job. It's typically because they don't fit with that person. They may excel with another leader, but not that one. So that compatibility is important. The second
Report I like on it was the job match or the comprehensive selection report, which says, here's the job and what's required of it based on other successful people. Here's where this person is. And it shows you the variance. And then the third one that I really like is actually the leadership report, because it just gives you a general overview of what that person would be like as a leader from a behavioral standpoint, thinking standpoint, and a motivational standpoint. So I I've spent
God, 27 years in business looking at personality, was certified before I went into business and the disc. And then in college was fascinated by taking all these tests because we were studying the sociology of relationships. And in all of these, we get along or don't get along because we fit together or we don't fit together. And when this is where I said we're going to debunk I like or dislike personality.
Mike Grigsby (11:12.129)
Thanks.
Jody Holland (11:34.885)
If your personality is that you're a perfectionist, let's say you're that number one on the Enneagram or on disk, you're a high conscientious and you're low on influence and steadiness, which are the relationship patterns, then you're going to notice all the things that are wrong around you and they're going to point them out to people. And if you're a person that needs affirmation, so you're high influence or high steady and you don't like conflict.
Mike Grigsby (11:58.755)
Yeah.
Jody Holland (12:04.282)
When people start pointing out all the things that are wrong with you, eventually you're like, I should get a new person to be around. Because you get tired of just seeing what's wrong with you instead of seeing what's right with you. So that's where I say it's the act of pointing out all the wrong that frustrates people. And what you said earlier, Mike, is you learn to adapt your communication to the person. That's the key that we're really looking at is can I communicate the way you need me to, not just as I am.
Mike Grigsby (12:26.338)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Grigsby (12:33.005)
Yeah, I mean, especially nowadays, the way business has shifted dramatically over the last 27 years. And we're seeing an uptick even more, you know, as we have to do exchanges through virtual mediums like this, we're not always face to face, we don't get to read all the micro movements and things along those lines. It's essential that we know how to be resilient or adaptive.
Some people might say that that's just being a chameleon. I think it's a necessary mechanism that we use in business for the whole purpose of communication, right? I mean, I'll go back to the first assessment that I really mastered and that was in fifth grade. There's that little paper thing that you go, it's like this. That told me who I was. It was the fortune cookie, right? Some paper fold. That was a very solid assessment. It read me well.
Meghan Slaughter (13:19.053)
Like the fortune tucky.
Jody Holland (13:23.909)
Yeah. That was so frustrating.
Meghan Slaughter (13:31.245)
I loved those things.
Mike Grigsby (13:32.226)
But we're constantly assessing, we're constantly looking, and I think if we need to, if there's anything that should be debunked, and I know you were getting ready to get into this, but I think if there's anything that needs to be debunked is that this is not a judgment, these tools are not judgments, and they should not ever be taken at just face value. The purpose of them is to ask more questions, right?
Jody Holland (13:59.281)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Grigsby (13:59.744)
It's giving you information you didn't know before, or if you did know it, it's giving it to you in a different context, which should stimulate your interrogative mechanisms inside of you where you're asking questions. Hey, if this is happening like this, I should behave like this, or hey, I'm behaving like this, so this should be the outcomes. It's an invitation to really change yourself and...
Pay attention, it's the metacognition, right? It's thinking about how you think. And that's the purpose of it. Not just to say pass or fail. How many times have we seen this? And when we're given an assessment, somebody, they're pissed that they got a seven instead of a 10, or they're on the left side instead of the right side. It's like, time out. It's an assessment to say where you are. Where you go from there is up to you.
Jody Holland (14:50.598)
Yeah.
Meghan Slaughter (14:52.001)
I think that's huge and I do think that it's really interesting to be able to look at these assessments. and I've actually taken the assessment I took the disc in high school and then also in my twenties. And so I got to kind of see my growth overall. I would say the core was the same, but I felt like I got stronger in certain areas, and that goes back to being able to adapt to certain things. I'm not a very confrontational person.
Mike Grigsby (15:08.461)
Mmm.
Meghan Slaughter (15:19.755)
But I have had to learn to speak up for myself in certain situations. Now I'm still not going to be seeking confrontation by any means, but I know that there are certain scenarios where I have to advocate for myself or for my team because somebody else might not be able to. And so
Jody Holland (15:38.959)
Yeah.
Mike Grigsby (15:39.021)
Yeah, my money's on you, Megan, if you have to get into a confrontation.
Meghan Slaughter (15:43.243)
You know, I'm always the mom of the friend groups and I can step up if I have to. Like if somebody needs to go ask for something, I can do it for them. I just can't always do it for myself. But
Jody Holland (15:53.509)
Well, I mean, knowing your limits is a good thing and knowing where you're at is a good thing as well.
Meghan Slaughter (15:59.841)
Yeah. I do think though that personality has a lot to do with job fit. Now, of course, you're never testing for personality in your hiring decisions, but you do want to be able to have a team that can work well together and can bounce off of one another. And I've heard the joke that, you can tell that person's a personality hire. And of course
That's not necessarily true, but I do think that there are certain people who bring the energy to the team and sometimes we need that comedic relief or we need that person who's not going to take everything quite so seriously and they can bring the team back together and recenter them around something that's more positive and uplifting.
Jody Holland (16:44.645)
Yeah. And sometimes we need just the right personality in there. So a personality hire is not a bad idea. I would say you think about the people that build people up, that cheerleader, go back to what we talked about in Six Types of Working Genius. That's the galvanizer that pulls them together and keeps things working. That is a demonstration of what brings them energy and joy. When you're living into a fit between
Meghan Slaughter (16:49.261)
Yeah.
Jody Holland (17:12.315)
Who you are at your core and what you're being asked to do for work, it seems effortless. But when you're living against who you are at your core and what you're being asked to do at work, I mean it is just a beating. If I have to sit and do details all day long, I will probably start poking my eyes out just for the entertainment factor of it.
Mike Grigsby (17:23.447)
have been.
Jody Holland (17:36.998)
Like, I need to get up and move and go. And that's why in my business, I've always said, hey, if you guys need to get up and go walk around the block, go do that. A lot of people look at me weird, like, why would I want to go walk around the block? Well, that's how my brain works. And it it takes a while for us to realize the way your brain works and the way their brain works, probably not the same thing. You got to figure out how to click between your functional world description and their functional world description.
Mike Grigsby (18:06.189)
And I think it's important too, because you're bringing up a really good point. And I can hear somebody's argument going, well, I should just find a job that just fits what my core personality or core temperament or behaviors are. I don't think it's as easy as that, because here's the reality. There is a natural set of who you are. It's an organic, inherent nature of who you are, your temperament, et cetera. In our jobs, we're asked to do more than just what
meets our natural inherent selves. So you have to make a stretch. And we've used this illustration before, Anybody can stretch, right? A rubber band can stretch out for any amount of time, but at some point it's gonna snap back to what its original purpose is. And you have to understand and know, and it's incredibly beneficial, not only for you as an individual, but for your team members to know when you're in your inherent natural groove state.
Jody Holland (18:45.745)
Yeah.
Mike Grigsby (19:03.905)
versus when you're having to make that stretch. If I have to put Megan in a confrontational dynamic environment or situation, I know that she's probably got like five minutes, seven minutes, 10 minutes before she's got to tap out and go do something else or something really bad is gonna go. Same thing, Jodi, and I'm saying this from personal experience, I know that you sitting down having to do details for a long time, I had to come tap out because you were gonna,
you were gonna injure somebody. We were gonna have some HR lawsuits on our hands, But if we don't know that about our teammates, I can look over there and be like, Jody's not committed. He won't sit down and do these details that are necessary. And now I've started filling in and creating a virtual reality of something that doesn't even exist. So it's important to understand who you are inherently and organically.
Jody Holland (19:34.693)
Yeah.
Meghan Slaughter (19:34.861)
Ha ha
Jody Holland (19:52.763)
Exactly.
Mike Grigsby (19:58.484)
and know when you are in that stretch. it's okay. Leaders don't have to be everything for everything. And that is super essential. Like tools and aids and matrices and mnemonics and all these, that's there for a purpose because nobody can be 100 % of everything that's necessary. You just need to know what your 50%, 60%, 70 % good stuff is, what you're gifted at, so that you can go find the right tools and aids to help you on the other stuff.
Jody Holland (20:05.307)
Mm mm.
Jody Holland (20:27.622)
Yeah.
Meghan Slaughter (20:28.044)
Do you think that there's a caveat to that though? I think that we do have that baseline, and I think it's really important to play into our own strengths, but I don't think we should ever use it as an excuse for not doing our jobs or for being bad at our jobs. You still have to put in that effort, and you know that is where you can have a team member step in if you need to step back from something. And so that's why it's really important to have those different personalities and different skill sets.
Mike Grigsby (20:41.826)
Thank
Yeah, 100%.
Meghan Slaughter (20:57.44)
But you should never use it as an excuse for yourself or for anybody else to just say, well, you know, Mike was yelling at the new intern. That's just his personality. It's fine. Yeah.
Mike Grigsby (21:10.817)
Right, no, that's unacceptable.
Jody Holland (21:11.665)
Okay. He stabbed them with a fork, but it's just his personality.
Mike Grigsby (21:15.347)
Yeah, that's how he is. You know him on Tuesdays.
Meghan Slaughter (21:17.646)
Exact. Days that end with why.
Jody Holland (21:18.651)
Yeah, I agree. Yeah, exactly. But I do think there's there's a lot of truth to that, Megan. Like you, you're right. So many people do use their personality as an excuse, but more often, kind of what you described, we make the excuse for somebody who's misbehaving. And go back to what I started with in the beginning, the debunk is I don't dislike anybody's personality. The reality is I dislike the way that they
Mike Grigsby (21:23.509)
Yes. That's a good point.
Jody Holland (21:47.228)
Project their behaviors and use personality as the excuse. Well, I just get anxious, so that's why it's okay for me to yell at people all the time. Not okay. That's not acceptable behavior. And ultimately, what we want people to figure out is you've got to figure out how to lead you before you try to lead other people. If you can't self-manage, then you can't effectively manage others either. And that's
Emotional control and that kind of stuff. Like Carl Jung was the originator of the concert, concept of introversion and extroversion. The idea that some people like they get their energy from being isolated and away from people, that's introversion. Some people get their energy from being with people, that's extroversion. Neither of those were described as can't be in front of people.
To go back to your behavioral correlation, you can have an introvert that can be great on a stage, but the way they recharge is by being in their hotel room by themselves after they're off the stage. Somebody who is an extrovert, they can be great on stage and they recharge by hanging out with the rest of the conference goers to see, man, what are you guys doing tonight? This is so great. my gosh, I just love being with humans, you know, and they just want to be around people. And then
Kind of the more modern is we're describing people that are great in one setting and completely different in a different setting as ambiverts. So they are an extrovert at work and an introvert after five, that kind of stuff. And we're seeing more and more of those people that are isolating the categories of their life. And I think that brings us to the point of your personality at home, the way you portray it.
Probably not the same as the way you portray your personality at work. Like I I know I I talk very differently at work with people than I would when I come home to my wife. And I'm not mean it I'm not mean at work or anything. I so I want to point that out. But I can tell you I don't I don't have quote unquote expectations of people the way I do at work when I come home.
Mike Grigsby (23:50.381)
See you later.
Meghan Slaughter (23:52.92)
Ha ha ha.
Mike Grigsby (24:03.757)
Well, the social contract is completely different, right? Between home and work. And I think it's important to point that out. You're not supposed to be the same individual across all things because the dynamics are different, right? The social contract at home with your family, the social contract at work with your coworkers, social contract with your friends when you're out, those are all very, very different.
Jody Holland (24:07.377)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Grigsby (24:30.093)
The fact that you behave differently or show up differently isn't making you some, you know, the spineless person that's just gravitating to the will or whim of the crowd. It's you're navigating very expertly and very deftly. You're navigating those different dynamics, even if you're not conscious of it. And I think I was, I was actually going to bring up a question, not necessarily a question that should be answered, but just one to make us go, you know, make us think harder on it. But we, give.
We create space for that person like, know Bob, he's just an anxious person so he behaves that way, or you know Susan, she's just, know, tidy all the time, so she's, know. We make these allowances for person. Do you think it's because we don't, let me give my quiz. Do you think it's because we haven't explored and really thought about our own behaviors and we don't really have a language and know how to.
kind of assess what other people are doing? Do you think it's some of that or at least maybe not all of it, maybe some of it?
Jody Holland (25:30.799)
Maybe maybe a little, but I I think more than anything, we don't know how to get people to change 'cause we don't know how to change. So sorry about that. We got a dog in the background. You're up, Megan.
Meghan Slaughter (25:43.149)
Yeah, I I do think that's an interesting question. And I do think that it comes back to having that understanding. And once you understand yourself better, I think it's a little bit easier to understand other people. I don't necessarily think that if you don't understand yourself, you can't understand anyone else. So more of correlation, not causation, perhaps. yeah, but that is interesting.
Mike Grigsby (26:07.125)
Mm. Sure. Sure.
Jody Holland (26:09.201)
That makes sense. And I the correlation part of it is when this person is under stress, they manifest their stress with this behavior. So then the coaching that you end up doing with people isn't, Bob, you need to change, or Jody, you're you're acting out. It's hey, when you're under stress, are you aware that your behavior pattern changed to X? What's playing in your head that leads to you acting in that way?
Is to create a new causation, not just a correlation, is to say, well, when I feel this, I think this. That's story loop. Then I think that, so I do this. So feelings create thoughts, and thoughts create the behaviors that we end up manifesting. The more people get in touch with what they're actually doing, and then the causation of the doing, they learn to control the story.
that leads to causing them to act in that way. And we are we just don't spend enough time coaching people on what are you making up as a story that leads to you telling Mike to go run face first into a a cliff or something. I don't know.
Mike Grigsby (27:16.173)
Yeah.
Jody Holland (27:24.315)
So I think that's the main issue.
Mike Grigsby (27:24.557)
Well, know that when I was younger, and especially in the military, it came out this way for me, is that I was very dismissive of people because I didn't know what I was thinking or feeling or processing. And so I just assumed that they were just jerks or lazy or whatever the case was. I was not, I'm glad we didn't have like HR stuff back in the military when I was in. But as I got older and started,
Jody Holland (27:49.391)
No kidding.
Mike Grigsby (27:53.23)
started understanding myself, can see where people would think I'm being more lenient or more tolerant, but it's not necessarily tolerance or leniency as much as it is just inquisition. Like, hey, are you going through this? tell me what you're feeling right now. Why would you be spanked? I just have a different vocabulary, a different repertoire to pull through. More Walt Whitman.
Jody Holland (28:14.715)
You're a little more yeah, a little more Walt Whitman. You're curious, not judgmental. A little a little less Sigmund Freud. Now you're I was saying you're being less Sigmund Freud and more Walt Whitman there, which is a good thing. So Megan, what would you what would you tell people who want to explore figuring out their personality and how it's impacting the way that they work? What would you tell them their next steps would be?
Mike Grigsby (28:23.681)
I thought she said I looked like him. Yeah.
Meghan Slaughter (28:43.736)
Well, first, I think people are kind of scared to understand themselves and really see that on paper what their personality is. So don't be afraid of the tests. it's not going to hurt you. It's not going to affect your position with your friends, your family, your job, anything like that. It's just giving you a better glimpse at how you present yourself. And you can use that to your advantage. So if there's something that you don't like on there, don't beat yourself up about it.
And make the change that you want to intentionally. The next step I would say is find one of the assessments that you think would be beneficial to you. It can be any of the assessments that we talked about today. There are a ton out there if you want to do some of your own research on it. I know there are a lot of free ones. You can pay for some more in-depth ones, but maybe take a couple of them too and compare the results because you can get a lot out of each of the reports.
So stop working against yourself and really focus on understanding why you are the way you are and who you want to become.
Jody Holland (29:51.963)
Good advice. Any parting thoughts from you, Mike?
Mike Grigsby (29:53.421)
Compassionate curiosity. I think that's the best way to say it is, when you are looking at either a report you're considering taking an assessment, or you've already taken one, or you're reading something from someone else, compassionate curiosity. It's just an invitation to ask more questions, but be curious and compassionately so.
Jody Holland (30:17.583)
That's excellent advice. And then my parting thought would be go along with what Megan said, probably take a few of them. I love Everything Disc. I love the PXT Select. I think those are two phenomenal ones. And I love the Enneagram. And when you take those assessments like that, learn about yourself from the perspective that Mike described earlier of now, how do I learn to control or lead myself to adapt to other people?
The greatest leadership thing that you can possibly do is be in charge of yourself. So thank you guys for being a part of this. Hope you enjoyed the show. If you did, please share it with your friends. And if you didn't, please call me and let me know what I need to do better. So we'll do it better next time. my personality as a challenger can handle it. We're gonna be just fine. I'm okay with conflict. So we'll see you on the next episode.
