Jody Holland (00:10.449)
Hey guys, Jody Holland here with Malia Burns, Mike Grigsby, and Megan Slaughter. And we're going to be talking today about change and change management and whether change is always a good thing because it is one of those things that's constant, or how do you recognize when it's not? So, Mike, you had some really interesting thoughts as we were prepping for this. So I'm going to let you kick this thing off.
Mike Grigsby (00:32.728)
Yeah. I love that we're we're tackling this. It is one of those constants. And it's something that we I think certainly within this podcast we we would love to just to tackle. I think we actually, I think we talk about it every single episode. We've just never dedicated an entire episode to it. So, you know, because it's so because it's so constant, because it's in front of everybody almost every day, we tend not to think about it. And we certainly we certainly have our thoughts up.
about it when when change is announced. but I don't know that we really understand what it means to orient ourselves around the the change. I think one of the things I I'd love to jump off with is Dr. Kubler Ross, a psychologist, she she was the first one to pioneer the grief curve. And later on she realized that that same movement is it it became the change curve.
And the idea behind it, just like with the grief curve, the the idea behind it is that nobody gets off the curve. No, nobody doesn't go through. Is that can I say the double negative? Nobody doesn't go through the grief curve, right? It it's really a matter of how long you stay on the change curve. Everybody's going to process it and everybody processes it very differently. And I think that's a maybe that's one of the places we can jump off, Jody, is just talking about how people begin to orient around change and and how you metabolize it.
Jody Holland (01:53.147)
So
Jody Holland (01:58.094)
So if I remember correctly, the there's four steps in the change curve. It is shock or denial. So the the thing happens. So let's say, you know, Boston Tea Party. We'll take something, go back then. They go, We will charge taxes on you, and it will be a two percent tax on all the tea that comes to the colonies. And people are like, What? There's no way we can handle that. And so they go dump the tea in the harbor and go, we only drink Starbucks or
Whatever it was, they yelled. I don't remember what the battle cry was exactly. And then they're like, we're so frustrated. We we just can't do this. We will resist. So they're shocked and then they resist and act. And then the third step was exploration. Then, you know, we formed the colonies like, wow, this actually like costs a lot of money. We're gonna need some money from people. How about we charge a 30% tax on everything that you do?
Meghan Slaughter (02:28.51)
Yeah.
Jody Holland (02:56.741)
Which that's a little bit of an exaggeration, but not drastically, because the average American now pays more than a quarter of their income back in taxes between sales tax and income tax at the state and federal level, then property tax and a bunch of other made up taxes that eat up stuff. So we explored it and realized, well, in order to have good streets and good education, we're gonna have this. And then finally we go, We're committed. We are definitely gonna tax people.
So, how did we go from a 2% tax on T to significantly more than that, more than 10 times that level on basically everything? And we're all committed to it now. Well, that's what you were saying, Mike, is the change curve is at the start, it's shock and denial, then frustration and, you know, kind of resistance to whatever they're doing. Then you start exploring things, and finally you get committed to things. And you you look at that Kugler Ross's curve.
I thought it was fascinating thinking about how well that tied in with grief and how we go through that same basic model. I think there's five steps in grief, but same basic model to figure out how we get committed to a new direction. But what people get caught up in, especially in business, is the shock and denial and then resistance. And they go, What is wrong with these people? Don't they understand we care about them? And
And when change is sprung on a person, no, no they don't. They don't understand that at all.
Meghan Slaughter (04:29.166)
And I think that's why I was just gonna say I think that's why it's so important that you communicate why the change is being implemented, because if you can get people to buy in, you eliminate some of that resistance. And I think a key here too is that change is inevitable, but confusion is optional. So you can really center the change around this message, repeat it regularly, talk to your people and include them in the process.
Maleah Berens (04:29.498)
I think a go ahead.
Meghan Slaughter (04:58.132)
Even if you are not taking their advice and implementing it, just giving them an avenue to talk about their concerns or their ideas can go a long way in getting them to buy into that change and actually stick to it.
Jody Holland (05:13.905)
Yeah, I think so too. Mike, you were gonna say something?
Mike Grigsby (05:16.496)
Yeah, I was I was gonna say, especially within the the business settings, what's what's interesting is when leaders think about change, especially initiating some something that is gonna be disruptive. that's typically what we think. We we do changes all the time, but it's something that's truly gonna be disruptive. What tends to happen is there are days or weeks or months dedicated to thinking about what that trend what that change is going to look like.
And what that allows for the leader to do, and certainly the the planning staff that is around that, you get to metabolize that over a longer period of time. You orient yourself around it, you begin to think about it. You have already started that change process. And then when you would make the announcement, you are anticipating that people will that that the people receiving the message will have instantly had the same orientation to it that you've had over the last
However many months, and it doesn't work that way. And you have to allow people to hear it, to understand it, to express that shock. In fact, you probably were shocked the first time, you know, the concept of whatever change you were going to initiate probably shocked you. You just move past it very quickly. But giving people that that space, that buffer space to digest it, to metabolize it, to orient, find their orientation around it is so critical.
Jody Holland (06:14.097)
Yeah.
Jody Holland (06:38.139)
Yeah, well yeah.
Maleah Berens (06:40.376)
I was gonna say, so I'm a little bit skewed in my perspective of this. So I was known for moving around a lot in my youth years. I think I moved over twenty-five times in my lifetime now. And so change change does not scare me like it scares a lot of other people. Change for me has always just been a signal for growth and adaptation. so looking at it not as this everything is going horribly wrong, but it as a
Mike Grigsby (06:53.362)
Who who would do that to you as parents?
Maleah Berens (07:10.138)
An opportunity to stay curious and stay fluid and realize that staying rigid keeps you from growing. but I was thinking about it from so I learned this a couple weeks ago. I feel like a lot of people have used the analogy of when you work out, you tear muscles and it that creates growth. You have to completely destroy yourself in order to grow. So we learned that actually your muscles don't tear.
This is revolutionary to me. because I've been using that analogy for as long as I can remember. But rather it's a mechanical tension within your muscles that causes a signal in your brain to start sending new proteins to be able to grow the muscle so that it's then strong enough to be able to lift that weight or do that exercise or whatever the thing is again. So I think about it in that standpoint of the initiation, the announcement of change for
people is a signal saying I need new proteins to be able to lift this muscle and to or lift this weight again. And so looking at it in a very different way of like, my goodness, everything's going wrong. It's just, it's information that your brain is processing.
Jody Holland (08:09.624)
Yeah.
Jody Holland (08:23.387)
That's an interesting way to look at that. And I hadn't ever heard that on the muscles. So that's kind of a cool concept to understand. Cause I do think that you know you exercise so that you change the way you look. That's kind of the reason I think I exercise anyway. And maybe other people have different reasons. Also do it to manage stress so I don't change other people's living conditions by freaking out too much.
So the change part of it, you get comfortable or you get uncomfortable with it. Dr. Lewin, kind of the most popular theory out there, is really simplistic. It's unfreeze, change, then refreeze. The unchange or unfreeze part is the hard part, getting people to let go of the way that they've always done it. And what's described a lot of times in business when we're trying to get people to let go of the old is you have to create some angst towards the old and some desire for something better.
And so you start looking at, well, what are we missing out on? What's wrong here? What are we not getting that we should be getting based on the way we're doing things? And finally people are like, you know what? I really am, I really am annoyed with where we're at. Then you implement the change because now people are open minded enough for the change because you built up enough negative energy towards the old way of doing it that you implement a change and then you make that the normal.
I think from a political landscape, politicians have been using these models for quite some time. it doesn't matter what country you go to or what era you're in. They try to build up the angst towards the existing way about how you're a victim and all these things are wrong. And if they can get you to feel like a victim, then you'll go, This is so unfair. Those people that are making it the way it is, they are the villains. And this politician is my hero and they will save me.
Which allows the politician to create the change that they actually wanted, which my outside observation generally only benefits the politician as opposed to all of the people that they say they're representing. And then they make it stick. And they're like, my gosh, what did we just do? Because what was presented and what was real aren't always the same thing. So then people cry for a new change and a new politician comes along, builds up the negative energy, unfreezes it, changes it, and refreezes it.
Jody Holland (10:45.785)
And it just happens over and over again because people don't sit down and have a plan. And Mike, you mentioned this before. So I'm gonna get you to expand a little bit on this on how do you know when change is actually needed?
Mike Grigsby (10:59.322)
Yeah. That's boy. You know, I was talking about from the from the standpoint of you've got to know what success looks like. But I that's a really good question. How do you know when change is needed? And and from a from a business perspective, I think it ties into exactly what you were just talking about. Like it whether whether it's external, you hear an external message about the angst of whatever it is, or you just reach an internal level of like I'm tired of
the way that this is right now. I I will no longer what's it what's the saying? It's it's like when when the pain of changing and doing something different is less than or greater than, you know, less than whatever, then staying the way you are. Something along those lines. That that that's a that's a quote attributed to Jody Holland. I was I was trying to paraphrase that. Yeah. Yeah. But but the idea is like the you reach a moment.
Jody Holland (11:41.477)
Yeah. When the pain of changing is less than the pain of staying the same, you change.
We'll go with that.
Meghan Slaughter (11:48.877)
Yeah.
Mike Grigsby (11:55.429)
Where you can no longer continue with the status quo. And you either do that preemptively, meaning you disrupt yourself because you anticipate something that is no longer going to work or no longer going to provide value or no longer going to be beneficial. So you're going to disrupt yourself to to to address what's what you see on the horizon or
Outside forces will cause you to change. And that's typically where where things begin to break because it's a it's a rigid change, right? It's not based on anticipation, it's not based on, you know, kind of getting ready for the thing. It one of those two things, and and I know that I've lived my life from the standpoint of I will I would rather disrupt myself before I get disrupted, because that'll offers me at least some control on this. And you know.
Megan, you were talking about as we were kinda looking at this before, talking about the n s the need and and kind of the necessity of of knowing what success looks like before you go into change to to to keep from just kind of change for the sake of change. Talk a little bit about what you were saying before.
Meghan Slaughter (13:04.524)
Yeah, I think it's important to understand as a group, not just the person who's announcing the change, what it means when the change has been successful. So how are you going to measure what that looks like? You can't just say, We're going to grow our business and then that's the change and we're just all gonna go with it. You could say we're going to expand our clientele base by five percent by the end of this quarter. That's a specific measurable change.
And so it's really helpful to figure that out in your planning stages. And then I think you should be over-communicating the change rather than undercommunicating it. Because you need to remind people what the change is, why it's important, where we're headed, and how we'll know when we get there. Because otherwise we create this confusion around it and you meet a lot more resistance. And resistance isn't always negativity. Sometimes
It's a result of unclear messaging. And so that's why you have to be very intentional about how you're phrasing things. And I do think that it should be an interactive process when you're implementing a change. You are giving your team something that you want them to start doing, but you're not always involved in the day-to-day activities of implementing that change. So if you can have that conversation with your team and ask them.
Is this working or do we need to pivot so that we can make this change successful? Then they start to feel more like a participant rather than a passenger in this. And so they really adopt that mindset and they're more willing to grow if you are more willing to listen to them and understand where they're coming from in implementing that change to make it successful.
Jody Holland (14:55.193)
That kind of hits two things. One, the clarifying the case, the reason for this, kind of shows that if you have goals and you have clarity on your goals and you have a strategy and a plan that back up your goals, then change isn't really that difficult. It also, from a personality standpoint, some people want to control the process, some people want to control the outcome. And a lot of times the people who are in charge of businesses, they really
Mike Grigsby (14:55.462)
Yeah.
Jody Holland (15:23.385)
are more focused on the outcome. And if they give people a sense of control over the process, people buy in much easier. The second point I was going to make on that, kind of connecting to the goals, is you have to honor what got you to where you're at. And sometimes people come in and go, we're not doing it that way anymore. And it's just wrong, blah, blah, blah. And they're mad about it. And I, okay, but it got us to where we're at. And I think we owe some honor to the existing plan.
got us to here. We just need a new plan to get to the next place because we've maxed out this plan. So if you clarify the case that setting your goal, you're tracking your systems in place, you honor the ending, you're appreciating the fact that what you've done got you to here, but you're going to need something else, then you align a coalition of people that are influencers. So being like a thought and culture influencer, if you've got key players in the community that are in favor of something that you're doing,
Mike Grigsby (15:57.606)
Yeah.
Jody Holland (16:22.169)
Other people buy in. That's the whole reason for celebrity endorsements. You know, I don't really think Shaq is the best one to give me advice on insurance, but his commercials are funny when he's on the general because he's got the tiny little dude next to him, and everybody looks like a tiny little dude next to Shaq. So and I think he endorses like 60 different products now, and he clearly doesn't use all the products, but he is great at selling himself for endorsements because it aligns people to him.
And they're like, I want to be like Shaq. I'm going to buy my insurance from the general or wherever you he's endorsing at that moment. Once you get the let go of the old and the buy into the new, there's a neutral zone. And that neutral zone, like Mike, you got pulled over one time and given a ticket, which you got out of, for stopping at a stop sign, rolling backwards, and then going. And they go, His car never stopped moving.
I get it. It was I had to stop sign, then it rolled backwards and it went forwards. And the judge goes, You literally have to stop to change directions. Ticket dismissed. That's kind of what I think. That neutral zone is the okay, are we going forwards or going backwards? What are we going do here? And it's trying to get the momentum of is it okay to follow this coalition of people, or do I want to stay stuck in my frustration and my resistance?
Mike Grigsby (17:27.1)
Yes.
Jody Holland (17:44.356)
Once you've navigated that, you generate some quick wins. The moment you start changing, you need to recognize people's greatness and you need to celebrate that as quick as you can. And then finally you embed the change as a part of your culture and you keep celebrating. So it's C H A N G E is the acronym that I just gave you. Clarify the case, honor the ending, align a coalition, navigate the neutral zone, generate some quick wins and embed it into your culture.
And when we make these changes like that, it takes the goal, makes sure we're going somewhere actually worth going to, lets go of the old, changes for the new, and push us, pushes us in the right direction. It it still has a lot to do with resistance, though, the for the reason that change initiatives fail. And I I can't remember where I read it for. It's like 70% of change initiatives get it somewhere written down here.
70% of change initiatives fail. And if you look at mergers between two companies, one culture will win and one will fail. But they most people don't talk about what change is going to happen and which culture is going to win before they get in there. And so people just fight against each other. But I I think honesty is what's missing. And that was the point of we talked about Andy Andrew's book.
Mike Grigsby (18:46.862)
Mm. Yeah.
Jody Holland (19:08.125)
almost like a pamphlet, a super short book, How to Kill 11 Million People, where he described in there, people have to desperately want the truth, not the illusion. The illusion feels better, but the truth is what creates the right kinds of change. The illusion almost always results in catastrophically bad change. So if we're going off of emotion, we're hosed. But if we're going off of reality,
Mike Grigsby (19:19.473)
Right.
Jody Holland (19:35.728)
We're fine. And he was referring to some atrocities that happened during World War Two and how people afterwards said, Well, that wasn't me. There's no way I would have done that. Like, but you did. And you did it because somebody else told you to do it, but you didn't fight against it because you bought into the lie and the illusion instead of buying into the truth. So anyway, but Cotter's eight step model is interesting. Lewin's three step model is interesting.
My change model is the one that I obviously use with companies. I always try to simplify things to make sure it's understandable. But if if you don't have a model, then it's easy to get bogged down in the chaos and then just give up. You're like, we tried it, it didn't work. I'm never doing it again.
Meghan Slaughter (20:23.606)
Yeah, I think that brings up an interesting point too, that you want to build an environment where people feel comfortable enough to question the decision and the change without questioning your authority necessarily, but being able to have that pushback if something isn't right, if it's not moral, ethical, or legal, you want them to be able to voice that to you. And so that where that's where it plays into the culture that you create as a leader.
Maleah Berens (20:24.2)
I think
Mike Grigsby (20:52.422)
Yeah, for sure.
Meghan Slaughter (20:53.966)
I'm sorry, Malia, what were you gonna say?
Maleah Berens (20:55.92)
No, I was just gonna say actually along the lines of what you're saying, and I'm glad that you went first, it's really important to recognize that in order to create change, everyone has to be moving in the same direction, or else everyone's gonna move, keep moving in the same direction, and you're gonna be one little lonely person going against everyone else. So I think it's really important to recognize who it is that is affected by this change that is trying to happen, and recognizing the individual roles at play.
So let's say all four of us are trying to do a single movement, recognizing that each one of us brings a very s critical role in order to be able to make that change play out. And part of being a good leader is recognizing who your followers are. and they're not just numbers, but they're individual people that have special and unique talents and gifts that allow the the culture to play out. And culture only happens when people actually come together.
Mike Grigsby (21:42.29)
It's
Maleah Berens (21:53.267)
So yeah, being able to recognize who all is affected and and the characteristics at play.
Mike Grigsby (21:59.505)
You know, you know it's interesting, and I have watched this play out so many different times when a change initiative is either identified or or or decreed, right? It it's it's put out there and said, This is what we're doing. And there there's two things that happen. One is I've watched too many leaders talk about the change that's gonna happen and then also say, This is how we're going to do it. As opposed to Jody, and you said this, talk about the outcome and and allow the, you know.
Here's the what and the how can be, you know, pushed down for for control or for input or participation. I always talk about it from the standpoint of like if I have, if I give you a die, there's six sides to it, right? And I if I ask you to roll a number, you're gonna roll a random number every single time, but you can't roll a 17. You can't roll a 322. You're gonna roll a one through a six, but it's random. And equate that to creativity, right? It's constrained creativity.
You can roll anything and do whatever you want within these constraints. Here is what we need to change. Here's what that change has to look like. Here's when we have to get it done. What do you think that we you want to do? And too many leaders will actually work around, like actively work around some of their most tenured individuals within their organization, the people that hold the highest amount of cultural currency and influence, they'll work around them because.
They want to be seen as the boss. They want to be seen as the leader of the change. Where if you make that declaration and say, here's what it looks like, here's what we're going to have to accomplish, here's when it has to be done, go get it done. You allow some of your best people to exercise the influence that's necessary. And they have skin in the game. They feel like they're they're equal contributors to what the the change is gonna look like.
Jody Holland (23:48.038)
And if they're if you're uncertain about how they're gonna do it, it's okay to say, I need to get this done by this date with this outcome and then say, How do you guys think we could get there? And and once they describe it, if it sounds good, you're good. Just keep going. So
Maleah Berens (24:04.922)
I think there's also something really important that you said, Mike, of if you're doing it because you want to be the leader of change and you want to be recognized as whatever the thing is, if you're doing anything for the reason of I'm creating my brand and this is gonna be my thing and it's my baby that no one else can touch, it's gonna fall flat on its face before it even grows legs. So understanding that you have to be able to do it for the intention of the greater good and that you care about the people that are around you.
and you want to genuinely positively impact the people that you're serving. It's never, ever, ever gonna be about you.
Jody Holland (24:42.481)
Yep. All right. So let's round Robin. What's your one piece of advice on change that you would have for other people? And Megan, I'm gonna get you to go first.
Meghan Slaughter (24:52.442)
quick note on that too. I think as a leader, if you want your team to change, you have to go first and you have to be able to model that before you ask it of your people and continue sticking to it. My second piece of advice on change is that we're all going to face it at some point. So don't be scared by it, but make sure that you communicate effectively and communicate regularly surrounding that change.
Jody Holland (25:20.717)
Excellent. All right, Mike, you're up. What's your piece of advice?
Mike Grigsby (25:23.706)
Yeah, so the the quote that I absolutely butchered earlier is if the pain of staying the same is is greater than the pain of changing, then you'll you'll make that move. and so, you know, I think change is it's a common thing. you just make sure, and I I said this earlier, just make sure you give if you're the leader, make sure you give people that you're announcing to this to
Give them a chance to orient around it. Give them a chance to metabolize it. They they have to soak this in. You've had all your time planning it and preparing for it. Give your folks the same benefit.
Jody Holland (26:01.049)
Excellent. All right, Malia.
Maleah Berens (26:03.558)
I think stay curious, and I know that's my ending, closing call most of the time, but it truly stay curious of how you can predict change? what gaps and efficiencies or inefficiencies can you begin to recognize so you can predict change, so you can begin orienting yourself to a new future of change.
Jody Holland (26:25.783)
And my parting advice would be just remember that the announcement is not the change itself. Kind of goes along with what Mike said. Just announcing that a change is going to happen doesn't mean that the change is going to happen. The announcement may be a catalyst for the conversation on change, but you have to have the conversations and you have to allow people to be afraid and to express their fear and their frustration. Cause if you give them that outlet, then they move out of that.
Mike Grigsby (26:47.866)
Yes.
Jody Holland (26:53.605)
That change curve from resisting you to exploring the possibilities and you're on the upswing once they get to that. So thank you guys very much for being a part of this. I love it when we get a chance to visit. We have a lot of fun prepping for these, probably even more fun prepping than actually recording. If you have any ideas for topics, send them to us. We'd love to have them. But until the next time, become the leader you would follow.
Mike Grigsby (27:04.455)
Yeah.
Meghan Slaughter (27:11.893)
Mm-hmm.
