Jody Holland (00:01.772)
We have a special episode for you today. It's just Jody Holland and Megan Slaughter, and we're going to be talking about the structure and framework of building out stay interviews, not exit interviews, because then it's too late, but stay interviews. So Megan, let's start a little bit with culture. Talk a minute about when you've passed that point of no return to know that we should have had these conversations sooner.
Meghan Slaughter (00:29.804)
The point of developing a really strong culture is to get people to stay. And that means continuous investment in your team, continuous communication, continuous team building. And by the time somebody is turning in their resignation, conducting a stay or an exit interview at that point is not going to benefit the organization in any way because they've already made the decision to leave. So really
You should be conducting state interviews periodically and regularly with their team so that you can understand what motivates them, why do they want to work here? What's going to drive them to accomplish the mission and the vision of the organization? So this is a very early on thing, and you can do this formally and informally. The informal piece of this is just having regular conversations with people on your team.
checking in with them, asking how things are going, what they're liking, what they think isn't working, and really taking that feedback and applying it to your leadership style. And I think that's the key too, is that whatever feedback you're asking for in a state interview or in an exit interview, you actually have to be willing to apply that in the future.
Jody Holland (01:50.658)
And I think when you look at that from the perspective of the employee, when we go, well, here's our point of no return, and we've made it past that. The reason it doesn't really do a lot of good on the exit interviews is because most people will say, when you say, well, why are you leaving? The most common answer is, Well, they offered me more money. And I remember talking to a dietary director from a hospital years ago, and they were explaining to me that they were losing.
their employees because other people, and one of them that they mentioned was like KFC, were actually paying them more money. And I go, hang on just a second. Are you telling me that your employees are being poached by KFC? And they go, Yeah. So KFC is like stalking through your organization and going, hey, I saw the way that you carried that tray to the trash can. That was
Pretty fantastic. Have you ever thought about a career change to KFC? And I'm not dogging on KFC because their 23 herbs and spices are fantastic. And I do actually like KFC. But what I'm saying is that was not when they finally decided to leave when KFC offered them money. I said, This is me talking back to the dietary director. They went out and applied for other jobs. They got an interview with KFC.
Meghan Slaughter (02:58.598)
Yeah.
Jody Holland (03:17.016)
They explained what they were making with KFC, and KFC upped it by 25 cents an hour. Or they kept it the same and they just made up the reason more money and they took the job. The question that should have been asked in that exit interview is: what prompted you to start looking for another job? Because most people are not being recruited by another business. They are going and looking for another job, and there were some catalysts. So
Go back to what you were saying about the stay interview when we're doing that, finding out what makes you want to work here? Essentially, we want to ask a series of really simplistic questions like, what is it about this job that made you think this is where I want to work? Like go back to before you started working here when we were interviewing you and you thought, this is what I want. Now, what is it that would cause you to look for another job? Why would you go out of your way to leave this organization?
And what are the typical things that you look for in a job that make you think, that's where I want to be, that's where I would want to be forever? Is we start getting into these discussions. It's some of the best discussions you could possibly have. And I've done state interviews in a couple of different ways. One of them is I just one-on-one talk to people and go, what makes you tick? Why do you like it here? What made you want to work here? What would make you stay? And what would prompt you to start looking?
The other way, and this has been very effective, is I got an entire department, about 20 people in a room, and we spent three hours on that one topic. What makes you want to be here? And a lot of really interesting things came out. The reason you would think people would leave, because they always say money, was never mentioned even once in that room of 20 people. And they could have built off of each other. But the number one thing was if my boss disrespects me.
I don't want to be here. And I I thought that was kind of fascinating that that was the number one thing. And I want you to think back, Meg, to you've had a couple of jobs. I know in other episodes you talked about your very first job, which was clear that you wanted to leave. But but think about if you didn't dislike your job, what would still prompt you to start looking for another job?
Meghan Slaughter (05:30.262)
Yeah.
Meghan Slaughter (05:40.588)
Well, that's a great point because I loved my job actually. I really enjoyed the thing that I did at the place where I worked, but I didn't like management. And so for me, management was the trigger. Money was not the trigger. And fast forward to another job that I had in college off and on when I come came back to visit, I really, really loved my job and I loved the people that I worked with.
for the most part, but it wasn't compatible with what I was hoping to accomplish. And so for me, I had this idea of what my life was going to look like and where I was headed. And as much as I loved the organization, that wasn't in alignment with what I was hoping to do. So there are several things that could trigger somebody, but I think most of those decisions
Jody Holland (06:31.8)
Yeah.
Meghan Slaughter (06:39.028)
are based on emotion and we tried to back them up with log it logic. So the money piece is, you know, that first job, I left because I did not agree with management. And yes, I did find a job that paid higher, but the reason I left was not because I needed a higher paying job. I left because I didn't feel appreciated for the work that I was doing. And it was
Jody Holland (06:51.811)
Mm-hmm.
Meghan Slaughter (07:06.878)
a struggle for me. I didn't want to come to work because of management, which was really sad because I did enjoy the work that I was doing in the beginning. And so it was this shift mentally for me. It wasn't about any external factors, but it was about how I felt in that situation. And then I came up with reasons to justify why it would make sense for me to go elsewhere.
Jody Holland (07:28.514)
Yeah. And I think that's what a lot of people do. So I mean, the way I look at it, we want to know what keeps them here. Like why do you want to stay? What do you look forward to? what would make you excited on a Monday morning to show up to work? And I always use Monday morning because so many people complain about Mondays. You want to know what pulls them away, but what you described was growth in the future first and then management. So you think about
What your dream is for your life. You might have a great job working for a great boss, but that that was a fill-in job. And maybe it was the job you had while you were in college, and you think, yeah, it's not really what I want to do for the rest of my life. And I I think back to JC Penney's. This was well over 30 years ago. When I was in Abilene and I worked for JC Penney's, I really liked my job. The job paid well.
The lady that I worked for was fantastic and I really enjoyed working for her. And in my mind, I know it was high school and then the first two years of college, but I was thinking, I could do this forever. And then as I was going through college, I started thinking, well, if I'm going to college and I'm going to get this degree, do I really want to sell tennis shoes and athletic clothes for the rest of my life? And the answer was no.
I like the job. I like the sales. I like the relationship. I like my boss. I really like the organization, but I didn't see that as my future. And I wanted to grow beyond the limits of what I could do when I was 16 years old. So I think growth into the future is an important topic for us to ask about. What do you want for your future? Like if you were looking at your progression in three years, five years, 10 years down the road with this organization, what would that look like?
And once we understand what that would look like for them, then that gives us an idea of how to have that conversation about, well, let's create a plan to capitalize on your talent, invest in you, and get you where you want to go. That's one of the pieces I think we're afraid to ask because let's say that you're great at your job and I go, I don't want to ask her about the future because I really like her where she's at, and I don't want to lose her in that role.
Meghan Slaughter (09:45.014)
Yeah.
Jody Holland (09:48.312)
But if I don't ask about your future, you might at some point go, is this it? Is this all there is? So I do think the future conversation's really important. And then think about what you would ask about the way they want to be managed or led. And I'm going to let you kind of dig into that just a little bit because you did bring up you didn't like management. What did you not like about management? Or what should they have asked you about that would have made you think?
if you change that, I'm good.
Meghan Slaughter (10:20.128)
I think the biggest thing was that I was not involved in any sort of process that was implemented. So I didn't have a say in anything. And if I did bring something up, I knew that it wasn't being heard by management. It would go in one ear and out the other. And they would just move on, or they would say, Well, thank you for your opinion, but this is how it's gonna be. And so that was really frustrating. and
I was the person interacting with customers face to face. So I knew what was going on day to day. And they didn't see that because they were in an office on another floor, not interacting with the employees and not interacting with customers. So they didn't understand what our roles and responsibilities truly were, other than you worked this many hours and I paid you this amount for it. And I expected you here to be.
be here at this time and to leave at this time. So things like that. And also something that would happen is that they would cut our hours randomly. And so they would just send us home after we got there. They would say, well, we're not really busy. And so for me as someone, you know, going through my first job and experiencing that, and I was scared for the future of the job industry. Like, is this how every single job is? Like
I'm gonna show up and I may not get the hours that I was promised. And when I talked to a manager about that, they were like, Well, there's really nothing I can do, it's coming from higher up. It is the way it is. And so they weren't listening to our feelings about it. And you and I are at a conference right now. and I was in a session this afternoon, and something that one of the speakers said was really interesting. And I think this can apply to both employees and employers.
As an employee, you do have to advocate for yourself at times, which means you have to talk to your managers about how you want to grow within the organization, as you said, what you hope to accomplish, what your personal goals are in combination with your professional goals. And you can ask them questions and you can explain, maybe I'm a kinesthetic learner or I'm an auditory learner. And
Meghan Slaughter (12:38.984)
I respond better in this way. And so when we're focusing on learning and development, it would be really helpful if we had hands-on demonstrations or something like that. So you can be the person to advocate for yourself as the employee. But also I want to caution that as the employer, you should be asking your people these questions. Hey, we're implementing this new thing. I want to get your feedback on how we should go about this. What's the process going to look like?
Give them a say. And you don't have to implement every single thing that they say, but just knowing that they're heard can make a huge difference. Because I know that would have made a huge difference for me in that job because that's what I really cared about, the feeling, not necessarily the outcome, but in that moment, that's what mattered to me.
Jody Holland (13:29.382)
yeah, and I think also kind of digging deeper into what somebody says is going to make a big difference. So you're describing in pretty good depth what was going on, but how many employees, when you ask them, what would make you want to show up happy on Monday? Or why do you want to work here? They go, I mean, you guys pay me, I guess, so that's pretty good. You know, maybe some coffee. Coffee would be good. So you want to dig in a little bit and you want to think if I'm conducting the stay interview.
Meghan Slaughter (13:49.462)
Maybe some coffee.
Jody Holland (13:58.04)
For me, it's 80% listening, 20% asking questions. But I'm not contributing or trying to put words in their mouth. I am just asking and trying to understand. The better I can understand, the deeper I can understand, the easier everything's gonna actually work out. So you want to use phrases like, well, tell me more about that, or help me understand that, or can you give me an example, or can you go further? So you're gonna use some of those questioning strategies to get them to talk more.
And I want to go back to one of the things you said about worrying about what the job market's going to be like. How many young people, I hadn't thought about this, but how many young people probably looked at the way they were treated on their first job and carried that idea of bad management forward into their first professional job? That would scare me to think, like I I only had one job that I truly hated the job.
And it was working for this farm. They had a bunch of houses and a really nice entrance and all this kind of stuff. So I I got a job mowing the yard and doing the weed eating on an hourly basis. And it took six full days of work to mow and weed eat all around all the houses and stuff. And then you got Sunday off and started over. And each day the guy that I worked for would cuss at me and tell me what off.
Meghan Slaughter (15:19.073)
Wow.
Jody Holland (15:24.526)
You know, my God, all you kids today and just blah, blah, blah, with curse words and put downs. And I made it two weeks. The only reason I know it took six days and started over is because I only lasted two weeks. And I I just finally looked at the guy and go, I'd rather be homeless than work for somebody like you. And I walked off. Another guy takes the job that's a friend of mine. He's like, it sounds like a great job. Four days in, he knocks the guy out.
Meghan Slaughter (15:46.038)
That's bad.
Jody Holland (15:54.956)
Like literally punches him in the face and knocks him out for the way he's talking to him. Now, my friend was 6'5 and incredibly athletic that took the job. I'm 5'9 and 130 pounds back then. So I wasn't going to knock the guy out, but my buddy did. And the the guy that gave us the job went to the same church that my dad was a preacher at. And so he calls us afterwards. He's like, why are y'all like, why did would nobody stay working for this guy?
And we explained it. And he goes, well, you just got to learn to be a tougher. So go back to your that's just the way it is. In my mind, I'm thinking, I'm never gonna hold a good job then. If that's what you have to put up with to have a job, I'm not doing it. Being disrespected, not being appreciated, not being valued, go back to the core of not feeling like you are significant in that role, like you are dispensable instead of indispensable.
would make almost anyone leave. There's some basic tenets of being a good human being that are required for you to be an effective leader. And if you can't be a good human being first, you can't be an effective leader. You may have people that stay with you because they're afraid of you or stay with you because you overpay for the role and they just want the money, but you're not building something that's truly going to last if you treat people poorly. So
I would say a couple of things to keep in mind. Number one, you've got to think about if you were on the other side, how would you want to be treated? Not how were you treated? And this is a rite of passage that I mistreat people, but how do you want to be treated? Second thing you got to think about is can you have regular conversations with your people to make sure you understand where they are, where they want to go for their future?
What would make them leave or look for a place to escape to? And then what would really make them feel valued, appreciated, significant, a part of something bigger than themselves? Then you got to think about how you dig deeper into listening. Am I asking follow-up questions? Am I trying to make sure that I'm on the same page with this person? If I am doing that the right way, thumbs up, maybe two thumbs up, you're crushing it.
Jody Holland (18:18.626)
But if I'm not doing those things, if I'm not digging deeper and trying to understand the second layer, just getting the surface will never get you the real answer. The digging deeper gets you the real answer. Usually after the second or the third question that you ask, now the person's gonna open up and tell you the rest of the story, as Paul Harvey would have said for those of us old enough to remember Paul Harvey. So give me your give me your final like.
Meghan Slaughter (18:18.656)
Mm-hmm.
Meghan Slaughter (18:43.926)
Yeah.
Jody Holland (18:47.256)
What are your thoughts, your best advice of what they need to do to make sure that they are keeping their people through effective state interviews?
Meghan Slaughter (18:56.374)
So, first, as a leader, it's really important to understand, and I think a lot of people forget this, that you serve your team just as much as your team serves you. So you should never be talking down to them or thinking less of them for participating in that role. So during a state interview, when you're talking with people, if you're ever having difficulties getting answers out of people, sometimes you need to break down some barriers first.
Because they might be scared to tell you their true thoughts. So you need to help them understand there are no consequences to this. I'm asking for your genuine feedback. I want to hear from you so that we can make this positive difference. And then if they're giving one word responses and they're not really talking much about what they're going through, don't be afraid to ask the same question in different ways. Now, don't just repeat the exact same question three times in a row.
until you get the answer that you want, but rephrase it. You know, lead them in a direction to where they're comfortable talking. I'm not saying give them any answers or send give them any leading questions, but let them know that their feedback really does matter and it will make a difference. And just have that conversation but regularly with them and let them know that if they ever have something that they want to bring to your attention, then you're available to listen to that.
Jody Holland (20:21.632)
Excellent. My parting thought for you is you should be consistent in having conversations one-on-one for performance. That should be a once-a-month thing. And just replace one of those monthly conversations twice a year with how are things going? What do you need from me? Where do you want to go in the future? All the key questions that figure out where they're at, how they feel about the culture, leadership, retention, all of those factors.
But if you're if you're having regular one on one performance conversations, a lot of this is going to come up anyway. And just again, replace one of those every six months, maybe, with what's working and what's not. I do have a list of questions that I'm going to leave for you guys as well. There'll be a link in the show notes where you can go request the state interview guide. So I would encourage you to go download the guide that Megan and I have put together. Use that as the basis for.
how you ask questions and take some of the questions that are in there. Your stay interviews can be as short as 20 minutes. Most of them end up being a half an hour to 45 minutes. There's a way that you introduce it, there's a way that you ask questions, and there's a way that you close it out. And that is delivered in that guide. So if you want a guide that helps you out, make sure that you look through the show notes, click on the link, and then just ask for your email and send you the guide.
look forward to seeing you guys on the next show. Thanks for being a part of the Become the Leader podcast. Make sure you tell your friends, your relatives, maybe even a few people you don't like very much that they should listen to the show so that they'll be better people and you'll actually end up liking them. Until next time, I'm Jody Holland.
Meghan Slaughter (21:56.0)
Yeah.
Meghan Slaughter (22:02.71)
And I'm Megan Slaughter.
Jody Holland (22:04.556)
Become the leader you would actually follow.
